17 replies to this topic

[snowybeagle]

Apparently, in Chinese food culture, where vegetarianism is concerned, not all vegetables are created equal.

I first learned this when a colleague told me that Chinese vegetarians do not eat the Chinese chives (韭菜).

Apparently, there's a list of the "Five Spices" (五葷/五辛) which included onion, garlic (大蒜), Chinese chives (韭菜), shallot (青葱), and leek (小蒜/薤/韭葱).

One account had it that these vegetables "excite the sense" according to some Buddhist texts.

Another 《本草備要》 listed them as 「慈蔥，冬蔥也；茖蔥，山蔥也；興渠，西域菜，云即中國之荽。」

Daoist texts also had their own Five : 韭、蒜、蕓薹、胡荽、薤。

The famous herbalogy treatise 《本草綱目》 listed 小蒜、大蒜、韭、蕓薹、胡荽 as the 五葷.

Does anyone know what these vegetables are and whether they do have the supposed functions in arousing the senses or emotions of the consumer?

Note : Francois gave a very interesting follow-up to this post.
I hope he can still reproduce it.

[naruwan]

Apparently, in Chinese food culture, where vegetarianism is concerned, not all vegetables are created equal.

I first learned this when a colleague told me that Chinese vegetarians do not eat the Chinese chives (韭菜).

Apparently, there's a list of the "Five Spices" (五葷/五辛) which included onion, garlic (大蒜), Chinese chives (韭菜), shallot (青葱), and leek (小蒜/薤/韭葱).

One account had it that these vegetables "excite the sense" according to some Buddhist texts.

Another 《本草備要》 listed them as 「慈蔥，冬蔥也；茖蔥，山蔥也；興渠，西域菜，云即中國之荽。」

Daoist texts also had their own Five : 韭、蒜、蕓薹、胡荽、薤。

The famous herbalogy treatise 《本草綱目》 listed 小蒜、大蒜、韭、蕓薹、胡荽 as the 五葷.

Does anyone know what these vegetables are and whether they do have the supposed functions in arousing the senses or emotions of the consumer?

Note : Francois gave a very interesting follow-up to this post.
I hope he can still reproduce it.

There are two reasons given to why buddists should not eat these 5 spices. 1, these spices leave bad breaths. Normally monks preach after their invited meal. Therefore if they had bad breath, it affects their preaching. 2, these spices stimulates senses, meanning they are sort of.... aphrodisiac. And hence not good for monks.

[fcharton]

Apparently, in Chinese food culture, where vegetarianism is concerned, not all vegetables are created equal.

{snip}

Does anyone know what these vegetables are and whether they do have the supposed functions in arousing the senses or emotions of the consumer?

Some 15 years ago, in the west of China, I knew a number of persons (buddhist believers, although not of the most devout form) who had become vegetarians in their old age (ie after they retired from work). They belonged to the middle/lower classes (typically, retired workers in small cities), so their observance was more like popular practice than strict adherence to a dogma.

Their food would be cooked separately from the rest of the family (non vegetarians), they had their specific cooking pots and bowls. Apart from not eating meat and not drinking, they avoided any condiment (ie vegetables or seeds which were used to enhance the taste of one's food).

For instance, onions, shallots and garlic were forbidden (I think leaks fell into this category because they are considered "onions"; besides, what was called leaks there had more to do with onions than with our western leaks), but they also tended to avoid red and green pepper, anise and mustard (which is found in dishes in the west of china), or ginger. On the other hand, I remember vinegar was ok (fortunately, as the typical dish was noodles, and noodles or dumplings without vinegar are like ... well ... not memorable)

Back then, I was told that they did this to keep their food "plain", that is, not make it more tastier through the use of condiments, a kind of ascetism if you will.

Interestingly, such practices of not adding spices to one's food are attested in ancient texts. I think king Goujian of Yue did the same during the many years when he was preparing his revenge upon Wu. As such, one could say that it is some ancient ascetic practice which got integrated into buddhism.

Francois

Edited by fcharton, 17 February 2006 - 07:41 AM.

[grandeur]

Surangama Sutra (楞嚴經)

Vi Bodhisattva development into Buddhahood
-The Three Gradual Steps To Wipe Out Samsara
Translated by Lu Kuan Yu

Ananda, all beings live if they eat wholesome food and
die if they take poison. In their search for Samàdhi, they
should abstain from eating five kinds of pungent roots (i.e.
garlic, the three kinds of onions and leeks); if eaten cooked,
they are aphrodisiac and if raw, they cause irritability.
Although those who eat them may read the twelve divisions
of the Mahàyàna canon, they drive away seers (çùi) in the ten
directions who abhor the bad odour, and attract hungry
ghosts who lick their lips. They are always surrounded by
ghosts, and their good fortune will fade away day by day to
their own detriment. When these eaters of pungent roots
practise Samàdhi, none of the Bodhisattvas, seers and good
spirits come to protect them, while the mighty king of
demons takes advantage of the occasion to appear as a
Buddha as if to teach them the Dharma, defaming and
breaking the precepts and praising carnality, anger and stupidity;
at their death, they will join his retinue, and at the end
of their time in his realm, they will fall into the unintermittent
hell. ânanda, practisers of Samàdhi should never eat these
five pungent roots. This is the first step of gradual practice.

Edited by grandeur, 18 February 2006 - 12:50 AM.

[DaMo]

Jains also do not eat onion and garlic.

I've heard that they don't eat root or subterranean vegetables like potatoes. And in the monsoons, there's even more restriction.

[urofpersia]

Apparently, in Chinese food culture, where vegetarianism is concerned, not all vegetables are created equal.

I do not think its a Chinese food culture but more a religious one (which incidentally is chinese of course but a difference)

齋 'zhai' as we call it would be the vegetarianism you refer to above. On other hand 素 would be vegetarianism in general without necessarily having the afore restrictions. However in the Chinese sphere, going to a Vegetarian restaurant even if they say 素 would probably follow the stricter code above.

ack then, I was told that they did this to keep their food "plain", that is, not make it more tastier through the use of condiments, a kind of ascetism if you will.

I think this is only a small minority. I have been to many vegetarian places in Taiwan which serves absolutely delicious food without the use of the above condiments either.

Another difference is that some religious vegetarianism allows eggs and dairy while others do not.

Apparently, there's a list of the "Five Spices" (五葷/五辛) which included onion, garlic (大蒜), Chinese chives (韭菜), shallot (青葱), and leek (小蒜/薤/韭葱).

On a more personal note, I avoid these spices in my everyday food anyway (I don't like the strong taste). Add on to the fact I do not like meat in general, much of my daily diet matches Chinese vegetarianism well. I of course love eggs and all Dairy products. I make strong exception for curry as most folks know contains a goodly amount of the above!

[qrasy]

Apparently, there's a list of the "Five Spices" (五葷/五辛) which included onion, garlic (大蒜), Chinese chives (韭菜), shallot (青葱), and leek (小蒜/薤/韭葱).

Do you know what I thought?
I thought it's very strange that 吃葷 refers to "non-vegetarian", while 葷 have 艹 radical.

齋 'zhai' as we call it would be the vegetarianism you refer to above. On other hand 素 would be vegetarianism in general without necessarily having the afore restrictions. However in the Chinese sphere, going to a Vegetarian restaurant even if they say 素 would probably follow the stricter code above.

Once I ate 齋 'zhai' food, and I thought that it lacks of any flavor (even salt), while I thought having salt would not make someone non-vegetarian.
"素肉" "Fake meat" has flavor, isn't it?

Another difference is that some religious vegetarianism allows eggs and dairy while others do not.

The "vegetarianism" which allows to eat egg is based on "not killing animals" (well, in the usual market the chicken eggs sold are unfertilized), so I doubt the ones who eat egg because of vegetarian reason don't eat the spices.

I make strong exception for curry as most folks know contains a goodly amount of the above!

LOL I also dislike to eat directly those spices, but not when cooked in some specific ways.

[urofpersia]

The "vegetarianism" which allows to eat egg is based on "not killing animals" (well, in the usual market the chicken eggs sold are unfertilized), so I doubt the ones who eat egg because of vegetarian reason don't eat the spices.

They dont eat spices. I can give you one example, The way of vegetarianism for Yiguandao means don't eat the spices but eggs and dairy are allowed. There are other examples I am sure but this is one where I know for sure. Once eggs and dairy products are allowed it is even easier to have a healthy well-balanced meal without too much trouble.

Once I ate 齋 'zhai' food, and I thought that it lacks of any flavor (even salt), while I thought having salt would not make someone non-vegetarian.
"素肉" "Fake meat" has flavor, isn't it?

The thinking that religious vegetarianism have no flavour is a myth. Go to Taiwan, there are many examples of delicious mouth-watering Vegetarian food (I am feeling hungry...)

Ironically, some of the worst Vegetarian food I have eaten is in Thailand, a buddhist country. The Thais dont know how to make good Vegetarian food. They do love their meat and spices. Any Thais wish to correct my impression?

[qrasy]

The thinking that religious vegetarianism have no flavour is a myth. Go to Taiwan, there are many examples of delicious mouth-watering Vegetarian food (I am feeling hungry...)

Not perfectly a myth.
That's this: food **from a monastery**, obviously a 齋(Zhai) food, had no flavor.
Other 素(Su) food had flavor though, even the food I got from others [who were vegetarians].
I thought 齋 and 素 were exactly the same so it's strange not to put salt, sugar etc.

[l0ckx]

The "vegetarianism" which allows to eat egg is based on "not killing animals" (well, in the usual market the chicken eggs sold are unfertilized), so I doubt the ones who eat egg because of vegetarian reason don't eat the spices.

The "vegetarianism" that restricts the eating of eggs and other 'dairy' products, in the west, is referred to as "veganism" or one who does not eat dairy and meats is a "vegan".

i was somewhat shocked when i read this. Garlic has a LOT of medicinal properties and is generally a very healthy plant. I was reading on wikipedia that garlic is also not grow in the wild and was believed to have been cultivated from another species 'Allium longicuspis' which grows wild in south-west asia. Funny how it derived from asia, and forbidden by an eastern religion.

http://www.garlic.mistral.co.uk/

I personally love all of those spices, roots, onions, etc. i say the more taste, the better!!!!

[grandeur]

Surangama Sutra (楞嚴經)

V The Enlightenment Of Others- Prohibition against killing

Translated by Lu Kuan Yu


‘Ananda, if living beings in the six worlds of existence cease
to kill they will not be subject to the continual round of births
and deaths. Your practice of Samadhi should free you from
defilernents but if your murderous mind is not cut off, they
cannot be eliminated. You may acquire much wisdom but if
you fail to stop killing, when dhyàna manifests, you will fall
into the way of spirits, in which the high rank is attained by
the mighty ghost (preta), the middle one by flying yaksas and
chief ghosts, and the low one by earth-bound raksasas.
These have followers and boast that they have attained the
Supreme Path. After my nirvana, in the Dharma ending age,
these ghosts will be found throughout in the world, and will
boast of how they feed on flesh which leads them to realize
Bodhi. Ananda, I permit the bhiksus to eat only the five
kinds of pure flesh which are the product of my transcendental
power of transformation and not of animal slaughter.
You, Brahman, live in a country where vegetables do not
grow because it is too damp and hot and because of all the
gravel and rock. I use my spiritual power of compassion to
provide you with illusory meat to satisfy your appetite. How
then, after my nirvana, can you eat the flesh of living beings
and so pretend to be my disciple? You should know that
those who eat meat, though their minds may open and realize
a semblance of Samadhi, are but great raksasas who,
after this life, will sink back into the bitter ocean of samsara
and cannot be my disciples. They will kill and devour one
another ceaselessly; how then can they escape from the
three worlds of existence?
‘In addition you should teach worldly men who practise
Samadhi not to kill. This is called the Buddha’s profound
teaching of the second decisive deed. Therefore, Ananda, if
killing is not stopped, the practice of dhyana-samadhi is like
shutting one’s ears while crying in the hope that people will
not hear one’s voice, or like trying to hide something that is
already exposed to full view. All bhiksus who live purely and
all Bodhisattvas always refrain even from walking on the
grass; how can they agree to uproot it? How then can those
who practise great compassion feed on the flesh and blood
of living beings? If bhiksus do not wear garments made of
(Chinese) silk, boots of local leather and furs, and refrain
from consuming milk, cream and butter, they will really be
liberated from the worldly; after paying their former debts,
they will not transmigrate in the three realms of existence.
Why? Because by using animal products, one creates causes
(which are always followed by effects), just like a man who
eats cereals grown in the soil and whose feet cannot leave the
ground. If a man can (control) his body and mind and thereby
refrains from eating animal flesh and wearing animal
products, I say he will really be liberated. This teaching of
mine is that of the Buddha whereas any other is that of evil
demons.

Edited by grandeur, 19 February 2006 - 09:13 AM.

[snowybeagle]

Personally, I find that one has to consume an unusually large amount of raw "pungent" plants in order to experience any adverse physiological effect. In most cooking I observe today, very minute quantities of these plants are used. However, someone who is not used to eating them might notice the difference more acutely than me.

It might be wisdom on the part of older Chinese folks to eat blander food - not only help to avoid overeating, but also less likely to suffer from food poisoning etc.

On the other hand, I notice the older folks in European countries like France and Italy, except those with gastrointestinal problems, have no problems enjoying their food (in terms of tastes, not quantity).

As a person who respect foods, I agree that food can stimulate the senses of the human beings.

I will respect an individual his choice, my own choice is to someday enjoy myself gastromically like in Babette's Feast!

[snowybeagle]

The thinking that religious vegetarianism have no flavour is a myth. Go to Taiwan, there are many examples of delicious mouth-watering Vegetarian food (I am feeling hungry...)

If you know of a good (and inexpensive) vegetarian eatery in Singapore that does not depend on condiments or flour type (I can't stand mock-meats & mock-fishes!), please share with me.

Mrs and I once tried going on a no-meat diet for several months.

I read something then and thought a then-recent spate of bad-temperedness might be related to my meat consumption.
The Mrs stoically decided she'll support me.

After a while, I concluded that while meat consumption does have a role, it was insignificant compared to a wholistic lifestyle, stress management and having good communication/relationship with my wife!

[urofpersia]

If you know of a good (and inexpensive) vegetarian eatery in Singapore that does not depend on condiments or flour type (I can't stand mock-meats & mock-fishes!), please share with me.

Some of the coffeeshop vegetarian can be good but the quality varies tremendously. Apparently a lot of local vegetarian stalls seem to think vegetarian food must be oily and fried.

Mrs and I once tried going on a no-meat diet for several months.

I read something then and thought a then-recent spate of bad-temperedness might be related to my meat consumption.
The Mrs stoically decided she'll support me.

After a while, I concluded that while meat consumption does have a role, it was insignificant compared to a wholistic lifestyle, stress management and having good communication/relationship with my wife!

I totally agree. Of course the psychological effect alone may be worth it. There are a number of studies (all of which were not conclusive IIRC) that eating meat increases the testosterone level which may have something to do with increasing aggressiveness and confrontation. Personally I think the increase is so neglible it probably doesn't have much of an effect.

However, I have personally notice that the body does feel different after a prolonged period of vegetarianism. Bowels tend to be smoother. Skin tend to clear up and have a healthier glow. Sleep is better as well. Common ailments like cough, sore throat, headaches also disappear. However vegetarians need to be pay more attention to their diet to get all their nutrients. I notice a lot of Singapore vegetarians don't really eat right.

What I do suggest as general recommendation to Singaporeans is to cut down on meat consumption. The bigger danger in my opinion is the stress we place on our liver and kidneys. This is often (IMO) viewed the wrong way in western medical practice which tries to treat the resulting illness or disease rather than trying to prevent damage to the organs in the first place.

Eating in moderation by reducing the amount for every meal is the best way forward. Oh, and bouffets ought to be banned.

[urofpersia]

Eating in moderation by reducing the amount for every meal is the best way forward. Oh, and bouffets ought to be banned. tongue.gif

I should probably add that if you eat the same amount by increasing your greens and reducing your meat intake, you can probably eat as much as you wish.

Lettuce can example is suppose to be negative calories. It takes more calories to digest lettuce than it contains.