35 replies to this topic

[TMPikachu]

In Christianity there are Angels, which have a sort demi-god Rank as God's minions, usually with special powers or tasks to fulfill, and many having bizarre appearances. They also war with fallen angels and other gods and such.

I would guess that there is something similiar with Chinese. Since Heaven is organized as a Celestial Beauracracy with the Jade Emperor at the top, I would imagine that he'd have people under him that fulfill the sorta 'soldier'/'messenger' role of Angels.

also angels all comply to a sort of ranking system (like angel, archangel, power, throne, etc.), is there a Chinese equvilant with such order?

[somechineseperson]

In Christianity there are Angels, which have a sort demi-god Rank as God's minions, usually with special powers or tasks to fulfill, and many having bizarre appearances. They also war with fallen angels and other gods and such.

I would guess that there is something similiar with Chinese. Since Heaven is organized as a Celestial Beauracracy with the Jade Emperor at the top, I would imagine that he'd have people under him that fulfill the sorta 'soldier'/'messenger' role of Angels.

also angels all comply to a sort of ranking system (like angel, archangel, power, throne, etc.), is there a Chinese equvilant with such order?

Do you want to know the original Chinese religious system (i.e. the system of the Shang and Zhou Dynasties) or the later mythological system influenced by Buddhism?

[ChiangAP]

Do you want to know the original Chinese religious system (i.e. the system of the Shang and Zhou Dynasties) or the later mythological system influenced by Buddhism?

I would love to learn about both. Do you have any pictures?

[ChiangAP]

Speaking only for myself, Western mythology is much more interesting that Western religion. Never figured out why some guys in Rome are more important that the myths.

Westerners always tried to relate their creeds to myths. Jesus tried to model his life against the traditional scriptures, Christians adapted their calendar to the old mythical calendar, solstices and so on, they also converted old pagan temples into medieval churches and transformed Celtic tumuli and stones into crosses and holy shrines.
Jesuits' attempt to view Confucius as a precursor of Christ must come from the same humanistic view: no man is an Island, all civilisations have something to share, like a gigantic puzzle that only makes sense when put together.

Going back to the angels, which (who?) are very much forgotten in modern Christianity except in pictures (Saint Michael, all dressed-up like a winged Roman soldier with angel face), what (who) are they?
How do universal myths meet? How do Chinese represent angels?
In another thread, TMPikachu posted this picture:
[attachment=632:attachment]
with the following comment:
"I wonder if dragons should be just a certain rank of angels (Thrones? Powers?) "

[Snafu]

I guess in Buddhism you could sort of draw a similarity between angels and Boddhisatvas. And In Taoism the immortals are vaguely angel-like figures.

Actually I think the Christians got the concept of angels from Zoroastrianism. I know Zoroastrians have angels too.

[TMPikachu]

I guess in Buddhism you could sort of draw a similarity between angels and Boddhisatvas. And In Taoism the immortals are vaguely angel-like figures.

Actually I think the Christians got the concept of angels from Zoroastrianism. I know Zoroastrians have angels too.

I think I've heard that too. But "servants to the big boss" sorta characters appear in many places. The Norse had valkries, Zeus had his furies, etc.
I've also heard that it's only in the Christian Bible that the orders of angels are elaborated into 12 or so ranks (and the inclusion of Fallen Angels).



"Never figured out why some guys in Rome are more important that the myths."
I guess it's the difference between a good play and reading a history book. You can learn lessons from both, but one raises more hairs than the other. Though in my opinion I think things are more related than you think
So the Roman gods are declared 'fake' and Christian gods come about, but the 'feeling' of the former is in the latter. Giant temples, Giant statues, patron beings of war/music/etc., and a muscular bearded man who throws lightning bolts, this describes both the 'mythology' and the 'religion' of Rome today and past.


Oh yeah, that Dragon and Angel thing was from a thread about 'how to make a Chinese christianity', I figured it was in the same vein as how Romans and Rome still worship more or less the same ways.


"
Do you want to know the original Chinese religious system (i.e. the system of the Shang and Zhou Dynasties) or the later mythological system influenced by Buddhism?"

Both would be terrific, but I figure in the THOUSANDS of years time gap alot changes.

On Shang/Zhou stuff, the patterns and Taotie have always fascinated me. You have a theory that Christianity and such is based from ancient Chinese religious beliefs, right? I usually hear it as ShangTi=YHWH/Dio/etc. but did you ever make an equivilancy to Angels (say the famous ones like Michael, Death Angel, fallen, etc.)

back on topic, equivilancy of Angels!

Edited by TMPikachu, 05 March 2006 - 01:57 PM.

[somechineseperson]

Do you want to know the original Chinese religious system (i.e. the system of the Shang and Zhou Dynasties) or the later mythological system influenced by Buddhism?"

Both would be terrific, but I figure in the THOUSANDS of years time gap alot changes.

On Shang/Zhou stuff, the patterns and Taotie have always fascinated me. You have a theory that Christianity and such is based from ancient Chinese religious beliefs, right? I usually hear it as ShangTi=YHWH/Dio/etc. but did you ever make an equivilancy to Angels (say the famous ones like Michael, Death Angel, fallen, etc.)

back on topic, equivilancy of Angels!

In the original Chinese religious system, the Supreme God, who is the Creator and Supreme Authority for both the natural and human/ethical orders is Huang Tian Shang Di (皇天上帝). He presides over a multitude of ancestral (human) and natural spirits, in Chinese called the gui (鬼 "ghosts") and the shen (神 "spirits"). There is however no concept corresponding to satan, angels or demons in the original Chinese system, though there could be both good and evil gui, just as there are both good and evil living humans. (Gui essentially are just the spirits of dead humans) There is also no concept of the Original Fall or the rebellion of certain spirits against Shang Di. One could argue that in this system Shang Di is the only "supernatural" Deity, all the other spirits are just either natural (e.g. spirits of rivers and mountains) or human (spirits of ancestors).

All the other spirits are Shang Di's agents and ministers and all act according to His Will. There is a reference from the Confucian/Chinese classic Zuo Zhuan which seems to suggest that a gui (ghost) can only harm a living human person if there is explicit permission from Shang Di.

More mythological characters were introduced later on into this system but still they are either human or natural spirits. There were still no explicit counterparts of angels and demons in the pre-Buddhist Chinese religion.

During the Eastern Han Dynasty the Confucian scholar Ma Rong (马融) introduced the concept of Shang Di Tai Yi Shen (上帝太一神), identifying Shang Di with Taiyi or Taiji (太极), the Origin and Source of all things.

After the introduction of Buddhism, the Chinese spiritual world greatly expanded in complexity. Note that in the original Chinese system there is no concept of other realms. There is only one realm, one tiandi (天地) where everything, whether human or natural or spiritual, inhabits. But Buddhism expands this by introducing the idea of the six realms. The concept of "supernatural" beings other than Shang Di, such as mo (魔 "demons") appears for the first time. In post-Buddhist Chinese folk religion some people describes Shang Di as the "Jade Emperor of Heaven" (玉皇大帝), who is the ruler of the heavenly realm. Buddhist figures that correspond with angels and demons were also introduced into the Chinese religious system.

Personally as an ex-syncretist I believe identifying the Supreme God as a "Jade Emperor" is not a good way to intergrate theistic religions with Buddhism. In theistic philosophy, the Supreme God is usually identified as the Ground of Being for all things. There is also a concept of Ground of Being in Buddhist philosophy, called Dharmakaya ("Buddha Nature") or Eternal Truth. It is better to identify the Supreme God in theistic religions with Dharmakaya in Buddhism, especially between Dharmakaya and the panentheistic element in theistic religions, which sees God not just as "the Supreme God out there", but also as the Spirit of Eternal Truth within us all.

Note also that the concept of angels and demons in orthodox Western Christianity is not the only theological alternative among theistic religions. in Judaism, for example, which places a greater emphasis on the Oneness of God, satan, angels and demons have neither indepedent mind nor will. In Islam, as well as angels and demons, there is also a third class of supernatural beings, called jinns. In certain Eastern Christian beliefs, such as those of Nestorianism, (Jing Jiao 景教 in ancient China) the concept of satan seems to be closer to that of the original Judaic system than it is to orthodox Western Christianity. (According to Cambridge theologian Martin Palmer)

Edited by somechineseperson, 05 March 2006 - 04:46 PM.

[ChiangAP]

Thanks for this interesting lecture

[Bao Pu]

Hi

Check out this link regarding Shang Di: http://www.pupress.p...hapter_one.html

While I can't think of anything resembling "angels" in Shang-Zhou-Qin China, many ghosts-spirits (Guishen) had perhaps similar abilities. There was Shang Di and Xia Di (higher gods? and lower gods?) in the early period. If "Xia Di" are believed to be dead royal ancestors, perhaps "Shang Di" refers to an ancestor or ancestors as well. Demons? Well, many spirits resembled and acting like demons. "Gui" is often appropriately translated as "demon" in some early texts.

Mu-Choo Poo's In Search of Personal Welfare: A View of Ancient Chinese Religion is an excellent book dealing with these things. I apologize for not having the time to search through it for relevant information.

[somechineseperson]

Hi

Check out this link regarding Shang Di: http://www.pupress.p...hapter_one.html

While I can't think of anything resembling "angels" in Shang-Zhou-Qin China, many ghosts-spirits (Guishen) had perhaps similar abilities. There was Shang Di and Xia Di (higher gods? and lower gods?) in the early period. If "Xia Di" are believed to be dead royal ancestors, perhaps "Shang Di" refers to an ancestor or ancestors as well.

Shang Di may have been thought as the Ultimate Ancestor of all peoples, rather than just of a single lineage. In fact, in the ancient Chinese ceremonial texts used during the annual sacrificial rituals to Huangtian Shangdi, Shangdi is explicitly described as the "True Ancestor of the myriad things".

Demons? Well, many spirits resembled and acting like demons. "Gui" is often appropriately translated as "demon" in some early texts.

I think translating gui as "demons" is a mistake. In the Judeo-Christian-Islamic context, demons clearly refer to evil spiritual beings, whereas gui can be either good or evil. In fact, in the writings of Confucius and Mozi, gui is usually thought of as good. Indeed, the spirits of one's ancestors are gui. They are clearly not demons at all. For Mozi in fact gui is somewhat like angels, being Shangdi's obedient agents and ministers.

The main difference is that in pre-Buddhist China, spirits (other than Shangdi) were thought of as either human or natural, never explicitly supernatural, whereas according to orthodox Christian theology, angels and demons are supernatural beings. Though it is debatable whether or not this is an original Hebrew idea. The orthodox Catholic idea of angels and demons existing in the abstract realm of forms is clearly a Platonic concept from classical Greek philosophy, not originally found in the Abrahamic religions.

[Bao Pu]

Shang Di may have been thought as the Ultimate Ancestor of all peoples, rather than just of a single lineage. In fact, in the ancient Chinese ceremonial texts used during the annual sacrificial rituals to Huangtian Shangdi, Shangdi is explicitly described as the "True Ancestor of the myriad things".

-- Yes, i think that was the general view in Zhou times. We have so little information from the Shang, when Di is first mentioned or invented.

I think translating gui as "demons" is a mistake. In the Judeo-Christian-Islamic context, demons clearly refer to evil spiritual beings, whereas gui can be either good or evil. In fact, in the writings of Confucius and Mozi, gui is usually thought of as good. Indeed, the spirits of one's ancestors are gui. They are clearly not demons at all. For Mozi in fact gui is somewhat like angels, being Shangdi's obedient agents and ministers.

-- Fair enough, but one thing I learned from Mu-Chou's book is that there exceptions to everything. Mozi said: "the ghosts and spirits of past and present are of three kinds only: the ghosts of Heaven, the ghosts of the mountains and rivers, and the ghosts of men who have died." "Demon" is often a good translation, sometimes the word "Shen" too, as some of them are described as pretty horrible-looking monsters (e.g., "with the head of a swine, slanting eyes and shaggy hair, long claws and serrated teeth"). Quite malicious too. There's many, many names for all these spiritual beings. I suggest that the idea of a single definition of Gui be discarded (many other words too). If TMPikachu wants to really know, he should pick up Mu-Chou Poo's book. You too, if you are interested in ancient Chinese religion and spiritual beliefs. The book is an easy read, has copious notes and a bibliography of over 40 pages. Chinese characters for all the various gods, spirits, demons, texts, etc are given. Some pictures too.

The main difference is that in pre-Buddhist China, spirits (other than Shangdi) were thought of as either human or natural, never explicitly supernatural, whereas according to orthodox Christian theology, angels and demons are supernatural beings . . .

-- Many people like to make this distinction, but from what I've read, many of the spirits and demons are what most people would call "supernatural."

[somechineseperson]

-- Yes, i think that was the general view in Zhou times. We have so little information from the Shang, when Di is first mentioned or invented.

I think it is clear that Di or Shang Di is not a human spirit. I have at least three reasons to support my claim:

1. Shang Di is the Ancestor of not only the human realm, but the natural realm as well. A human cannot be the ancestor of the natural realm. In the official ceremonial texts used for the annual sacrificial rituals for Huangtian Shangdi, Shangdi is described as the Ancestor of all the myriad things, not just of all the myriad peoples.

2. If Shang Di were a human spirit, He would certainly be an ancestral spirit, so the ancients would have sacrificed to Him in a similar way to how they sacrifice to their ancestors. However, according to a respectable historical source, this is clearly not the case:

“The Late Shang kings and their supporters believed that Di presided over a
hierarchy of ancestral and other Powers that were capable of influencing the
success or failure of most aspects of Shang life. That Di was conceived as
being ‘above’ is indicated by his ability to ‘send down’ disasters and approval
on men below. That Di was virtually the only Power who could directly order
the Rain, or the Thunder, as well as the only Power who had the Wind Powers
under his control, set him apart from all the other Powers, natural, predynastic,
or ancestral. . .
“It has frequently been suggested that Di was the first Shang ancestor, but the
evidence is problematic. . . The living Shang kings divined about Di
infrequently, however, and they offered him little or no sacrificial wealth. The
contrast with the generous and importuning way in which the kings treated their
ancestors implies that Di was regarded quite differently.
“This conclusion is supported by the consideration that, on rare occasions, Di
might order enemy attacks . . . That Di could order the dynasty to suffer harm
in this way . . . further implies that Di’s role was nonancestral. . . (these cases) suggest that Di was potentially a Tian (‘Heaven’)- like figure capable, like the
Zhou deity, of harming and destroying the dynasty.”

David Keightley, in The Cambridge History of Ancient China, From the Origins of Civilization
to 221 B.C. , The Shang, Cambridge University Press, 1999, p. 252-3

3. In official rituals there have never been a single image or idol of Shang Di in nearly 4000 years of Chinese history.

-- Fair enough, but one thing I learned from Mu-Chou's book is that there exceptions to everything. Mozi said: "the ghosts and spirits of past and present are of three kinds only: the ghosts of Heaven, the ghosts of the mountains and rivers, and the ghosts of men who have died." "Demon" is often a good translation, sometimes the word "Shen" too, as some of them are described as pretty horrible-looking monsters (e.g., "with the head of a swine, slanting eyes and shaggy hair, long claws and serrated teeth"). Quite malicious too. There's many, many names for all these spiritual beings. I suggest that the idea of a single definition of Gui be discarded (many other words too). If TMPikachu wants to really know, he should pick up Mu-Chou Poo's book. You too, if you are interested in ancient Chinese religion and spiritual beliefs. The book is an easy read, has copious notes and a bibliography of over 40 pages. Chinese characters for all the various gods, spirits, demons, texts, etc are given. Some pictures too.
-- Many people like to make this distinction, but from what I've read, many of the spirits and demons are what most people would call "supernatural."

I still don't like the term "demon". Even if gui does not simply refer to ghosts and there are some malicious ones, gui as a class of spiritual beings is clearly not all evil. As I said, most references to gui in the classics are in a positive or at least neutral context. On the other hand, "demons" clearly refer to an explicitly evil class of spiritual beings. Therefore translating gui as "demons" is not accurate at all.

A better translation would probably be "spirits", which is a very generic and neutral term that covers a lot of possibilities, if the term "ghosts" is as you say too narrow. One suggestion by A. C. Graham is that shen usually refers to the "higher spirits" while gui refers to the "lower spirits".

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

The main difference is that in pre-Buddhist China, spirits (other than Shangdi) were thought of as either human or natural, never explicitly supernatural, whereas according to orthodox Christian theology, angels and demons are supernatural beings . . .

Why the distinction? Even after Buddhism, all spirits are still human, even the Tian Di, who was rumoured to be a king many kalpas ago who ruled all due to his previous merits.

[TaiE]

I would rather focus on how ordianry chinese think about the "Tianshi" is to be.

In chinese: Tianshi（天使）= Angel , and they are often used togather and no clear disctinction

There are some tips:

1. chinese "Tianshi" means anything, anyone that is from the heaven, they can be called as "tianshi"

2. When try to give a restrict area for "angel" in chinese that equivilant to the western "angels", it must be precisely ranked. In chinese mythology, the heaven court is stricted disctincted according one's own power and experience(资历） and merits.


So, after combined many obvious figures and the angels' usage in the world, I presume that some of the servants and other skilled workers（仙女） in the heaven court could match the angel's similar meaning in the west mythology.

In fact, there is no Shangdi as a term of creator of the world in chinese mythology, Yuhuang dadi(玉皇大帝） is also a normal human after millions of years self-cultivation and then become the Emperor in the heaven court. One can explain this way, One can think that way.