45 replies to this topic

[Liu Bei]

Do the Chinese have knights like King Arthur's? If so who are they? I heard that knights are like generals, is that true?

[Wujiang]

Do the Chinese have knights like King Arthur's? If so who are they? I heard that knights are like generals, is that true?

No, Knights are a noble caste which have military duty.
Position by bloodline stopped existing in China since the Spring and Autumn period. Since then, mililitary office in China are merit based.

[urofpersia]

Do the Chinese have knights like King Arthur's? If so who are they? I heard that knights are like generals, is that true?

The period where King Arthur is supposed to have lived never had knights as they are popularly portrayed.

[Liu Bei]

The period where King Arthur is supposed to have lived never had knights as they are popularly portrayed.

I know, but I was talking about the legend of King Arthur?

[urofpersia]

I know, but I was talking about the legend of King Arthur?

Which version of the legend are you referring to? I apologise, you place this topic under Chinese History Topics, naturally I assume you were referring to historical figures, not mythical or legendary ones.

[qrasy]

When you say "knight", I naturally think of some "cavalry" "騎士"...

[Wujiang]

When you say "knight", I naturally think of some "cavalry" "騎士"...

Technically, when you analyse their duties and privileges, 武士 is the closest thing. There have never been a 騎士 caste in Chinese history in any form so if we want to apply the term to the most applicable translation, 武士 means 'knight'.

[snowybeagle]

No, Knights are a noble caste which have military duty.
Position by bloodline stopped existing in China since the Spring and Autumn period. Since then, mililitary office in China are merit based.

Not exactly true.

Various dynasties, including Han Dynasty & Tang Dynasty, had separate registry for certain noble families with priviliges for the scions to enter either the civil service or military service without any "merits", passing of exams or rising through the ranks.


As to the original question: there were lords served by warriors in a way which bear similarities to legend of King Arthur and his knights of the round table.

What is different though would be the ideals of the chivalry and courtly love associated with Arthurian legends in Chinese history/folklore.

The Chinese counterpart to the ideal of a European chivalry & courtly love would be an educated hero skilled in fighting and possess Confucian ethics - but most accounts were more pragmatic.

Canonisation of the deities《封神演義》 is one tale which describes how some of the most powerful beings on earth chose to side with King of Zhou to overthrow the tyrannical King of Shang, their being persuaded by moral arguments rather than selfish desires.

[Wujiang]

Various dynasties, including Han Dynasty & Tang Dynasty, had separate registry for certain noble families with priviliges for the scions to enter either the civil service or military service without any "merits", passing of exams or rising through the ranks.

I believe you are refering to the military corps like the Yulinqi. While it is true that they are all recruited from people of noble birth, a number of things differs for them.

(1) They still have to pass certain minimal standard of military requirements.
(2) These men are still recruited. Although they consider it an honour to join these elite corp, there are no legal obligation on their part to do so. Only social ones.

As for people who use their political and bribing influences to get their sons into office, that it not a part of the official system.

[TMPikachu]

I think the wuxia that fly through the air are the closest equivilant, since we are not too concerned about reality (as we are comparing them to Arthurian knights)

one thing that I find interesting is that Wuxia hero's love interests are often fellow pugilists, a far cry from the helpless tower maidens that knights always lust after.

[Wujiang]

I think the wuxia that fly through the air are the closest equivilant, since we are not too concerned about reality (as we are comparing them to Arthurian knights)

No way. Even on a fictional level, the Jiangs from things like RoTK would have been the equivalent of fictional knights. But these are in such a weak sense that it is only good for those brainless enough to no see the enormous difference between them. It is nothing short of comparing a professional soldier with a tribal warrior. In terms of historical accuracy, the Wushi caste of the Zhou era would be the correct equivalent of knights

I think good equivalent to the wuxia in western literature would be things like rangers and thieves

[Yun]

For more on the shi 士 in the Warring States period, see http://www.chinahist...7839&hl=the shi

The term is confusing because it was later used by the Confucians to refer to the learned literati/scholar class, and not warriors.

Also, the xia, a type of vigilante folk hero that existed in the Warring States, Qin, and Han, are often called "knight-errants" in English. Indeed they were part of the inspiration for late imperial literature's wuxia figures. See: http://www.chinahist...owtopic=220&hl=

[TMPikachu]

No way. Even on a fictional level, the Jiangs from things like RoTK would have been the equivalent of fictional knights. But these are in such a weak sense that it is only good for those brainless enough to no see the enormous difference between them. It is nothing short of comparing a professional soldier with a tribal warrior. In terms of historical accuracy, the Wushi caste of the Zhou era would be the correct equivalent of knights

I think good equivalent to the wuxia in western literature would be things like rangers and thieves

in the sense of being heroic, legendary individuals though, they occupy the same position in the mind, even though their 'professions' were quit different.

Like, I mean to compare them by being heroic/legendary, not in the sense of "land owning lords who serve a king" or something.

[DaMo]

士 is some kind of low-ranking noble, right?

[snowybeagle]

士 is some kind of low-ranking noble, right?

Actually, I believe the 士 would be the equivalent of ksatrias (Kshatriya) of India as far as their role in the social structure is concerned, excluding the religious significance.

The 士 clans were granted lands in return for providing mandatory military service to their lieges.