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What if Japan had conquered all of CHina?


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#16 Guest_Manchuconqueror_*

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Posted 20 September 2004 - 03:36 PM

The talk of genocide is just not very realistic. 500 million people is a lot of people


Even killing 1,000 civilians is considered genocide. It's just easy for japan to commit genocide over China. The problem is the proportions. Of course, Japan would never kill all those Chinese because they have no time...but they could have forced them to serve the army by placing them on the front line :(

Or on factories which would benefit gigantically the Japanese. Just think it as 500 Million new peons to serve a country. Who wouldn't want that(besides the trouble of feeding all of them ;))

So if Japan did conquer all of CHina...I bet that Stalin would not be so foolish enough to stay there or else Hitler and Japan would have united to kick its communist butt out to Santa's hut. And if US never intervened, then I guess Most of Asia would turn into Japan :S

#17 Guest_SY Xiao_*

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Posted 20 September 2004 - 07:14 PM

The initial Japanese plan was to conquer as much of Asia in as little time as possible, so that the Americans would hesistate in declaring war (since by then Japan would be a very worthy adversary). The problem, of course, is Japan's miscalculations in Pearl Harbour.

But if Hitler defeated Stalin on the Eastern Front, then Stalin would've been in no position to aid China or anybody else... and Hitler was VERY close to winning Barbarossa.

#18 GuanYu

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Posted 20 September 2004 - 07:51 PM

Probably but most of Asia turned into Mongolia at one time in history and how long did that one last?

#19 Kulong

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Posted 20 September 2004 - 07:57 PM

Probably but most of Asia turned into Mongolia at one time in history and how long did that one last?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Again, it's a different time. During the days of Genghis Khan, there were no massively destructive weapons and quick and convinent transportation among other advancements made since the Yuan dynasty that would help the Japanese conquer Asia and keep it conquered.

However, I seriously doubt Japan would've ruled Asia indefinitely. But I do believe it's safe to say that without outside interference, Japan most likely would've ruled Asia for far longer than the Mongols.

With that said, I would rather die before China, and the rest of Asia is ruled by the Japanese. <_<
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#20 GuanYu

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Posted 20 September 2004 - 08:34 PM

Again, it's a different time.  During the days of Genghis Khan, there were no massively destructive weapons and quick and convinent transportation among other advancements made since the Yuan dynasty that would help the Japanese conquer Asia and keep it conquered.

However, I seriously doubt Japan would've ruled Asia indefinitely.  But I do believe it's safe to say that without outside interference, Japan most likely would've ruled Asia for far longer than the Mongols.

With that said, I would rather die before China, and the rest of Asia is ruled by the Japanese.  <_<

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Okay far enough but it it still in my humble opinion that China and the rest of Asia would have survived. The japanese are simply not massive enough to overrun Chinese culture. The Japanese emperors may hold courts in China for a couple of hundred years, but it will eventually be a Chinese court, and japanese become a minority in China. Come to think about that. Japanese court would have abandoned Japan and moved to Beijing much like the Mongol Khans. Then in a couple of generations, they would have been toppled and never heard of again..... end of Japanese Empire.

#21 Guest_Manchuconqueror_*

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Posted 21 September 2004 - 05:24 AM

Then in a couple of generations, they would have been toppled and never heard of again..... end of Japanese Empire.


Ummm...according to my knowledge, all change of dynasties occured due to either foreign invasion or peasant rebellion. In the case of peasant rebellion as I think you are referring to, how could that happen? These peoples were known to use multiple crossbows, but would they fare vs guns?

#22 Kulong

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Posted 21 September 2004 - 09:15 AM

Okay far enough but it it still in my humble opinion that China and the rest of Asia would have survived. The japanese are simply not massive enough to overrun Chinese culture. The Japanese emperors may hold courts in China for a couple of hundred years, but it will eventually be a Chinese court, and japanese become a minority in China. Come to think about that.  Japanese court would have abandoned Japan and moved to  Beijing much like the Mongol Khans.  Then in a  couple of generations, they would have been toppled and never heard of again..... end of Japanese Empire.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In our modern society, number is no longer as important as it is before. We have weapons that can be operated by a single person which can kill hundreds of thousands.

Again, this is a different time. The Japanese aren't stupid, I'm sure their leaders are aware of Chinese history and what happened to foreigners who invaded and conquered China in the past, namely Mongols and Manchus.

With modern inventions like telephone, telegram, radio... etc. (during WW2) and later television, computer, internet... etc. the Japanese government wouldn't have to move their capital to Bejing. The Japanese could've easily ruled their little "Asian Empire" directly from Japan.
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#23 snowybeagle

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Posted 21 September 2004 - 10:47 PM

With modern inventions like telephone, telegram, radio... etc. (during WW2) and later television, computer, internet... etc. the Japanese government wouldn't have to move their capital to Bejing.  The Japanese could've easily ruled their little "Asian Empire" directly from Japan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


It all depends on how realistic the scenario of Japan conquering China is.

In the first place, in the real world history, Japan never intended to conquer the entire China.

Even the most imperialistic leaders in Japan did not want to conquer China.
They wanted a strong Japan that could stand as tall as any world power.

They had experienced discrimination from the Westerners even after they defeated Russia and after they supported the Allies during World War 1. They also learned through the hard experience of the Great Depression of how pragmatic the modern world was and they could not depend on the supposedly democratic and free nations such as the West to be open to foreign trade when the going got tough.

To be strong, Japan needed a military that could be taken seriously.
In the modern age, it meant it needed raw materials - iron, coal, oil and rubber etc for the military industry.
It also wanted more lands for farming to cater to its fast expanding population - Manchuria was selected for the proximity.

There were several reasons for invading China.
( a ) Raising national prestige
( b ) Natural resources

However, China itself would not be able to supply Japan with all the necessary natural resources.

"The Japanese had neither the intention nor the capability of directly administering China. Their goal was to set up friendly puppet governments that would be favourable to Japanese interests. However, the action of the Japanese army made the governments that they did set up very unpopular, and the Japanese refused to negotiate with either Kuomintang or the Communists, which could have brought popularity." References

"Though the war with China looked like a success, China had few of the resources Japan needed, especially oil and iron. Undeveloped Siberia had plenty of mineral wealth, but two bloody skirmishes in 1938-39 against Soviet and Mongolian forces got nowhere."In fact, they got badly beaten.

"Southeast Asia was a more promising source of raw materials; with two of the colonial powers (France and the Netherlands) crushed by Germany, and Great Britain under siege by Hitler's navy and air force, Japan had a free hand in the region, so in 1940-41 French Indochina was occupied and Thailand was forced to join the Axis. That provoked a response from the fourth Western nation with interests in the region: the United States."

" (Japanese) Prime minister Konoye saw three courses of action:
1. Agree to American demands, which called for a humiliating withdrawal from Indochina and China Proper.
2. Negotiate with the US for easier terms.
3. War with the West.

Konoye tried option #2, but could not reach an agreement; in October 1941 he resigned, and a rampant militarist, General Hideki Tojo, took his place. There was no turning back from here, as all political parties were dissolved and replaced by an authoritarian cabinet."


In order to speculate what would happened if Japan had conquered China, we would need to identify which historical facts had been tweaked in order for that to be achieved.

Did Japan
(1) have far more population that it actually had in the real history?

(2) have the connivance of treacherous Chinese as did the Manchus? (Historically, the Mongols only conquered China by halves, northern half of Jin, then southern half of Song after more than two decades and two generation of Mongol rulers).

(3) have developed and employed weapons of mass destruction to wipe out cities the way the atom bombs did?

(4) enjoyed the privilige of the KMT and CCP wiping each other out along with more than 90% of China's population in the process?

(5) won every battle and forced the Chinese (military or otherwise) out of China into bordering regions (as happened to many KMT units after CCP's victory against the KMT)?

(6) other reasons?

The reason of Japan's hypothetical victory in conquering China would be the most important factor determining what would happen afterwards.

Kulong's assertion that technology was the answer to Japan's maintaining dominance in China was a leap in wild imagination. When you start a genocide, no potential victims would remain passive, they would either fight back or flee - historically, China had small arms supplied to enable them to fight, and many Chinese also fled, not just to inland China, but also overseas or across borders.

Even in the realms of fantasy and speculation, there must be internal consistency.

If we start tweaking the fundamental historical facts such as Japan had a thousand-fold more citizens than it did so that it could actually conquer China, then the possibilities are endless, and meaningless.

However, for a more sensible discussion, we must ascertain and differentiate between the improbables, the unlikelies, the luck of the draws and way-out-there.

For example, Britain, with its relatively small population, managed to gain control of India for decades (part of it for more than a century). It did not have to resort to genocide, but relied on superior technology and economic arrangements, as well as compliance from locals, and the fact that the Indians were not united across their clans, castes, states and religions.

It could not hang on.

France could not keep Algeria either despite its superior technology, or the fact that the French outnumbered the Algerians.

And if the willingness to commit genocide was a factor, then consider USSR in Afghanistan where entire villages were massacred - eventually, the mighty Goliath stumbled, with the more and more soldiers going home in bodybags.

Kulong's assertion of the use of technology and genocide could not be labelled as impossible. However, given what we know of history, the credibility of such a scenario is rather, how should I put it, improbable? ;)

#24 Kulong

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Posted 22 September 2004 - 09:09 AM

snowybeagle,

This topic is about "WHAT IF Japan had conquered ALL OF CHINA". 'Nuff said.
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#25 yehzhaofeng

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Posted 22 September 2004 - 11:26 AM

If it was conquered, I still believe CHina's guerilla warfare will be a heck of a time pain in the A** fight for the Japanese. Thousands dies each day because they fell into guerilla traps.

Chinese were very united at this time and its impossible to say that Chinese won't rebel nor fight. And the Chinese by the end of WWII moved westerward and build

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#26 snowybeagle

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Posted 25 September 2004 - 04:24 AM

snowybeagle,

This topic is about "WHAT IF Japan had conquered ALL OF CHINA".  'Nuff said.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Kulong, "WHAT IF" is a supposition, a speculation. It refers to a "possible outcome" that "could have happened if certain historical events turned out differently".

It is not about an alternate history because some god in heaven or the MATRIX suddenly hacked the statistics between contestants and changed the outcome.
(If that is what you mean, then it is rather meaningless to go on, does the term "munchkin" mean anything to you?)

Therefore, it is valid to bring forth plausible scenarios based on the sequence of events which are necessary for the supposition to happen in the first place.

#27 Guest_ac_dropout_*

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Posted 28 September 2004 - 09:24 AM

I too would disagree with the genocide scenario, just looking at the colonial history of Taiwan and Korea. Sure some killings and slaughters but far short of genocide.

And given the perverted nature of Japanese men, they would just try to sleep with all the Chinese women and be naturally reabsorbed into the Han culture within a generation of two.

That's my opinion.

#28 Han_Chinese

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 05:16 PM

And given the perverted nature of Japanese men, they would just try to sleep with all the Chinese women and be naturally reabsorbed into the Han culture within a generation of two.

That's my opinion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I don't know why, but I find these biased comments about "Japanese perversion" more believable everyday. :lol:

Anyway, after being introduced to the idea of freedom by Sun Yat-sen, the idea of being oppressed by the general populace will be A LOT less welcomed than the previous times in history. There is no doubt in my mind that guerilla groups will form from as much as one-third of China's population.

Also, if we consider the scenarios BEFORE this hypothetical Japanese conquest success, the Japanese army was already suffering from attrition shortly after they arrive on to Chinese lands. In fact, it was improbable for them to stay longer than they wished, which lead to them wanting to finish their job quickly.

#29 Guest_IronMouse_*

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Posted 06 October 2004 - 02:30 AM

You know, this really IS a sensitive topic for people. It stirs up some unpleasant feelings, even if it's just a "what-if" scenario. Also, "genocide" is a loaded word. I personally hesitate to throw it around unless the situation has met some concrete criteria that qualifies the term.

What IS certain is that the Japanese did wipe out entire villages off the map when they expanded through Manchuria. They DID murder hundreds of thousands of Chinese civilians in a pre-meditated and deliberate way. And by modern standards, it DOES count as genocide. However, back during WW2, was that the original Japanese intention, and would they have continued to try genocide even if they had conquered the whole of China?

I believe the Japanese would have been absorbed into the culture, just like the Mongols and Manchus. As far as I can see, the Japanese believed in their pure-blood divinity, but they weren't tryng to create an Aryan master-race like Hitler by stamping out races that didn't fit their criteria. If the Japanese conquered China, they would have likely ruled it like the Mongols - preventing intermarriage, making sure all the top positions were filled by Japanese, keeping their own language alive, and treating all non-Japanese like second-class citizens. Keeping the culture separate, however, would be considerably more difficult, because Japanese culture takes alot from Chinese culture. It's highly likely that try as the Japanese might to keep their own culture pristine, they can't stem their curiosity towards the so-called "mother culture" and will become more and more like the Chinese.

But this is all hypothetical, based on an educated guess. :|

#30 caocao74

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Posted 24 November 2004 - 11:50 AM

Japan's ideal plan was not primarily the conquest of Asia but the creation of the facade of the Greater Easte Asia Sphere, which aimed at assimilating generally unwilling Asian nations under their control. In Korea, the Japanese had aimed at cultural assimilation until the military took over in the wake of a Korean uprising in 1921. Japan always aimed at being the leading nation, striding over the other Asian nations, exploiting them for labour, rubber, petroleum, etc, and although there are innumerable accounts of brutality and savagery, but they were never orchestrated in a similar manner to the Third Reich's Final Solution or the purges of the USSR.
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