7 replies to this topic

[somechineseperson]

I posted in here earlier a thread about the Shang Dynasty vs. the Egyptian New Kingdom. Now suppose there is a military clash between China during the Western Zhou Dynasty and the Neo-Assyrian Empire, who would be more likely to emerge victoriously?

For the sake of this argument, let's suppose this war is fought "in the abstract" so terrain considerations don't need to be factored in. We don't have to worry about where this war is fought.

Suppose the war is fought in the year 900 BC, who would be most likely to win?

Western Zhou Dynasty China:

Total population: around 10 million?
Maximum army size: around 100,000 men
Armour: bronze helmet + small bronze plates protecting the front of body
Weapons: chariots drawn by four horses, recurve composite bow, short bronze swords, bronze axes, ge

Neo-Assyrian Empire:

Total population: ?
Maximum army size: around 100,000 men
Armour: bronze helmet + bronze chain mail armour, large shields
Weapons: chariots, composite bows, short iron and bronze swords, bronze and iron pikes

Map of the Neo-Assyrian Empire: (934 - 612 BC)



Neo-Assyrian Warrior:



Map of Western Zhou Dynasty China: (c. 1046 - 771 BC)



Western Zhou Dynasty Chinese Warrior:



Any insights on this, warhead?

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

If you are talking about 900 B.C. this discussion is really pointless, as you can see on the map of Assyria yourself, it controlled but a few cities, its only really during Sargon II and Assurbanipal I and II's reign that Ashur gained large amount of territory comparable to the Western Zhou(by which time, the Western Zhou no longer exist. )a better comparison would have been Assurbanipal I and Qi Heng Gong, Assurpanipal II and Jin Wen Gong.
Extending into the Chaldean period with Nebuchadnezzar to Jin Jin Gong.

[somechineseperson]

If you are talking about 900 B.C. this discussion is really pointless, as you can see on the map of Assyria yourself, it controlled but a few cities, its only really during Sargon II and Assurbanipal I and II's reign that Ashur gained large amount of territory comparable to the Western Zhou(by which time, the Western Zhou no longer exist. )a better comparison would have been Assurbanipal I and Qi Heng Gong, Assurpanipal II and Jin Wen Gong.
Extending into the Chaldean period with Nebuchadnezzar to Jin Jin Gong.

Actually I don't see it as completely pointless because it is clear that by 900 BC the Assyrians were already a major military power even though their territory at that time was significantly smaller than that of the Zhou Chinese. They were the only power that used iron weapons widely in 900 BC. Also, territory is not everything, Northern Mesopotamia was very densely populated at that time so even within a small territory there could still be a sizable population. Zhou China was larger but population density was quite low in many regions.

At any rate one can still compare the early Neo-Assyrian army with the Western Zhou army even if we ignore detailed considerations of space and time.

Edited by somechineseperson, 06 March 2006 - 02:36 AM.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Actually I don't see it as completely pointless because it is clear that by 900 BC the Assyrians were already a major military power even though their territory at that time was significantly smaller than that of the Zhou Chinese. They were the only power that used iron weapons widely in 900 BC. Also, territory is not everything, Northern Mesopotamia was very densely populated at that time so even within a small territory there could still be a sizable population. Zhou China was larger but population density was quite low in many regions.

Assyrians did not use iron weapons widely in 900 b.c. as I said before, it was only under Sargon towards the end of the 8th century B.C. that they changed mostly to Iron weapons. northern mesopotamia is no more densely populated than central China, of which Zhou is located. Zhou's population is perhaps over 10 times that of Assyria's at this date, the entire central plain has near 10,000 chariots at this time. Assyria has only started to expand under Assurnasirpal II(883-859) from its earlier decline.

[somechineseperson]

Assyrians did not use iron weapons widely in 900 b.c. as I said before, it was only under Sargon towards the end of the 8th century B.C. that they changed mostly to Iron weapons. northern mesopotamia is no more densely populated than central China, of which Zhou is located. Zhou's population is perhaps over 10 times that of Assyria's at this date, the entire central plain has near 10,000 chariots at this time. Assyria has only started to expand under Assurnasirpal II(883-859) from its earlier decline.

It appear that it is uncertain when iron weapons were first to be used in significant quantities in the Fertile Crescent region. Some sources say Assyrian armies used iron weapons widely by 900 BC.

I agree that the central plains of China, or more precisely the Wei River valley and the mid-Yellow River valley, the old domains of the Shang and Zhou states, were no less densely populated than Northern Mesopotamia. However, this region was really not significantly larger than Northern Mesopotamia either. The other regions of Western Zhou Dynasty China were still quite sparsely populated. Therefore I wouldn't be so hasty to say something like the Western Zhou's total population was 10 times that of Assyrian Northern Mesopotamia. I think it was certainly larger, but definitely not by that much.

At any rate, for the purpose of a general comparison of the military strength between Western Zhou China and Assyria, perhaps 850 BC would be a better date?

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

It appear that it is uncertain when iron weapons were first to be used in significant quantities in the Fertile Crescent region. Some sources say Assyrian armies used iron weapons widely by 900 BC.

The earliest archeological find of a iron storehouse dates to the late 8th century B.C., in the palace of Dur-Sharrukin(Fort Sargon), there was always a mix of bronze and iron weapon prior to that. No sources earlier mention any great use of iron. Nor were there any archeological finds of iron weapon in great quantity.

However, this region was really not significantly larger than Northern Mesopotamia either." The other regions of Western Zhou Dynasty China were still quite sparsely populated. Therefore I wouldn't be so hasty to say something like the Western Zhou's total population was 10 times that of Assyrian Northern Mesopotamia. I think it was certainly larger, but definitely not by that much.

No, Assyria in 900 b.c. only had a handful of cities, namely Nineveh, Ashur, Zamahe and Kalku. It didn't even control the whole of northern mesopotamia, but only part of northeastern Mesopotamia.
The central plain at this time quadruple the size of Meopotamia, the estimated size of the Zhou population can vary between 10-20 million by 800 b.c. Mesopotamia only had around 2-3 million. Assyria in 900 b.c. have well less than one million people. Adding up the handful of cities under their control.
I do have the information for a comparison in military composition and number of units and the amount of war chariot they can call up in about 850 b.c. but you'll have to wait after I finish a few papers this week.

Edited by Borjigin Ayurbarwada, 17 October 2010 - 12:25 PM.

[Boleslaw I]

Assyrians perhaps were the previous incarnation of the Mongols. Their reputation in using hit-and-run tactics proved significantly well in charging against heavy armies such as the Hittie Empire. This advantage was no longer the preserved by the next Persian Empire. I cannot imagine how this could be compared to Chinese army.

It must be reconsidered when we are talking about their missile troops by all senses of this word. Their famous forces such as archers from Balawat seemed to represent their military might. I lack general information about Siege Warfare of Assyria, so I could not speak of this matter. But one thing is sure, they used bronze armour more extensively than Zhou's army.

Edited by Boleslaw I, 05 February 2008 - 10:05 AM.

[rocket7777]

Whoever invade loses.