[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

I always wondered where the term Zhan Guo Qi Xiong came from. But history has shown that the political situation of the warring states is certainly not anything like a world between 7 powerful contending states until the very end of the 4th century B.C. beggining perhaps with Su Qin's vertical alliance.

First of all, the state of Yan was not a very powerful or influential state in the early half of the warring state. It is more focused on its northeastern borders. While the kingdom of Zhao and Han were relatively weak in comparison to the other kingdoms and constantly sought help from greater powers. The contending states in most of 4th century B.C. is actually that of Wei, Chu, Qin, Qi, and Yue.

The Wei dominated politics for the later half of the 5th century B.C. under Wei Wen Hou for nearly half a century. Because Wei had the territory of He Dong region of Shan Xil, the wealthiest part of Jin and its center. The terrrain is highly prosperous, in addition to Wei Wen Hou's internal reforms and external alliance. Wei is the most developed state economically at this time and the most powerful.(its agricultural growth and irrigation is not much changed down to the days of the Republic!) Wei Wen Hou became the hegemon for over 50 years, but his successor Wu Hou was not as brilliant and changed many policies and ended Wei's hegemon.

Chu became the next great power under the reforms of Wu Qi and in 381 BC conquered the Chen, the Cai, and defeated the Yue and the Han and Wei in the north. But its power is also not lasting. Although it managed to conquer Yue and defeat Qi towards the end of the 4th century B.C.

The Tian family of the Qi took power in 386 B.C. and steadily grew in power to play the international scene and challenge Wei's supremacy. Qi expanded in all directions and fixed its laws. By the time of Qi Wei Wang, it is a power capable of exerting great influence. Qi defeated Wei in Gui Ling in 353 B.C. by helping the Zhao. Afterwards, the kingdom of Qi under Wei Wang dominated the central plains. In Ma Ling in 341B.C., a further defeat was inflicted upon Wei in the protection of Han, 100,000 Wei army perished, the crown prince Sheng was captured, and the general Pan Juan was killed, all three Jins(Zhao, Han and Wei) paid homage to Qi Xuan Wang.

The kingdom of Qin was not inactive, defeating Wei in its borders even prior to Shang Yang's reforms, in 362 B.C. it defeated Wei at Shao Liang(Han Cheng Jun of ShanXi), after the reforms made by Shang Yang, Qin defeated Wei in a series of battles, in 358, Qin defeated Han in Xi Shang(Shang Nan Jun of ShanXi). Four years later in 354, it defeated Wei in Yuan Li(Deng Cheng Jun) and conquered Shao Liang, three years later in 351 B.C. Shang Yang personally led a Qin army to Gu Yang(Mi Zhi Jun), Gu Yang is an important northwestern military post for the Wei, losing this strategic area is a blow to the Wei. In that same year, Qin built up its defense in Shang Nan Jun of Shan Xi in Wu Guan to prevent Chu's advances. Qin then moved its capital to Xian Yang. The Qin at this time controlled all the way up to the western frontier of the yellow river. In 340, taking the advantage of Wei's defeat by Qi, took much of the territory west of the yellow river.

The state of Yue was still very powerful down to its last days. The last of the powerful kings of Yue was Wu Jiang. He constantly attacked Qi and Chu. Even during the reign of the powerful Qi Wei Wang, Yue Wang Wu Jiang attacked Qi, Qi Wei Wang sent a messenger to tell Wu Jiang that attacking the Chu was more beneficial. This was done, only to see the Yue army totally crushed, Wu Jiang was killed, all the territory of Wu was captured by Chu. The kingdom of Yue became divided under many princes, all under the vassalage of Chu. However Yue did not exit the scene until 334 B.C., priot to that, Yue was a state comparable to Wei, Qi and Qin, more powerful than Zhao, Han and Yan.

This post has been edited by Yun: 13 March 2006 - 04:38 AM

[snowybeagle]

Yet, somehow, the State of Zhao developed a reputation in history for martial valour while the State of Han, a reputation for its weapons.

The State of Yan came into prominence after it nearly finished off the State of Qi.

It is debateable which was weaker: Yan or Han.
I notice that Yan was the last major state from the original Ji clan of the Zhou royal house.
Zhao, Han and Wei were formerly vassals of the defunct state of Jin, at one time, the most powerful state led by an offshoot of the Ji clan.
At least the Ji clan managed to carry on until the end of the game.

There could be several reasons why the State of Yue was overlooked after it conquered the State of Wu, but I suspect primarily because it was
(1) Taken out of the game earlier than the rest,
(2) Was not part of the short-lived but famous anti-Qin alliance of the Six States.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

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The State of Yan came into prominence after it nearly finished off the State of Qi.

It is debateable which was weaker: Yan or Han.
I notice that Yan was the last major state from the original Ji clan of the Zhou royal house.
Zhao, Han and Wei were formerly vassals of the defunct state of Jin, at one time, the most powerful state led by an offshoot of the Ji clan.
At least the Ji clan managed to carry on until the end of the game.

The state of Wei share the same sirname with the house of Zhou too(at least according to ShiJi). Hua Gong Gao was enfeoffed at Hua and thats how he got his sirname. The account mention his family dispersing afterwards until one of them called Hua Wan started to serve Jin Xian Gong. However, this story sounds to be like a fabrication invented later.
Also, Yan's ascendence was only temporary. Its defeat of Qi is short lived, Qi almost immediately retook the 70 cities it lost to Yan. The Qin remains the strongest state of the time.

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There could be several reasons why the State of Yue was overlooked after it conquered the State of Wu, but I suspect primarily because it was
(1) Taken out of the game earlier than the rest,
(2) Was not part of the short-lived but famous anti-Qin alliance of the Six States.

Yes, however, in the early half of the so called warring states period. Yue was more powerful than Yan, Han and Zhao. It contended hegemonic status with countries like Qi and Chu. For some reason Shi Ji 's chapter of Qin mentioned that "during the first year of Xiao Gong, there was 6 great kingdoms east of the Xiao mountain and yellow river. And Yue was not mentioned among them. This might well have to do with Su Qin's alliance which changed the perception of the international system and the bias created afterwards. Su Qin's horizontal alliance forged the concept of the 7 contending states. Yet priot to the weakening of Yue in the latter part of the 4th century B.C. it is more power than 3 of the 7 contending kingdoms.

[fcharton]

Warhead,

As far as I know, the Shiji does not really talk about "springs and autumns" or "warring states" period, this characterisation of the two periods by the name of the historical chronicles came later (Eastern Han?). He refers to the two periods (for Sima Qian the transition happens in 476 BC) as

- 12 feudal princes for the springs and autumns
- 6 kingdoms for the warring states.

Note that the choice of this name has to do with political organisation : the name of the first period implicitly considers that China is unified under the Zhou, and that states are ruled by feudal princes, vassals of the Zhou, whereas the second considers that the kingdoms are more or less independent (hence the use of Wang for the name of the rulers, which becomes prevalent in this era).

The date of the beginning of the warring states period varies from one author to the other, but the fact behind the change is always the same : the split of the Jin (changes in the date depends on when one considers it really happened, as it was in fact a slow process...). My impression is that the disappearance of Jin, a strong and central power, made the old system of hegemons, ie one prince assuming the leadership over others, and becoming the "global policeman of the Zhou" (to use in a modern analogy), impossible.

On the number of states, you are right that there were more than 6 states : Yue is missing, as is Zhongshan, and Song which existed in the beginning of the era, the two last instance showing that it is not a matter of "central states" (zhongguo) vs peripheric states (eg Yue). My impression is that the 6 states refer to those states which were actually destroyed by Qin, and therefore seen, in a Qin perspective as the contender for the imperial throne.

As such, I think it would be possible that the expression actually came from the Qin Annals, which still existed in Sima Qian time. More precisely, the opening of the Liu Guo Biao (chapter 15) of the Shiji is a direct reference to the Qin Chronicles :

太 史 公 讀 秦 記 ，The Great Historian read the Annals of Qin.

As such, the expression Six Kingdoms would mean : the Six kingdoms which the Qin fought, and seven states would be the seven states which fought for the imperial throne. I would see both as "Qin-ocentrims".

As for the date when the distinction between Springs and Autumns and Warring States was made (ie when did historians decided that this correspond to two different eras), I would suspect that it happened very late, at the very end of the Warring States period possibly. Note that the Shiji and other works insist on the enfiefment of princes of Wei, Zhao and Han by the Zhou king, which mean that by the end of the 5th century, we were still in a "feudal prince" configuration. My impression is that the distinction between the two might date from the Qin dynasty, or maybe even later.

Francois

This post has been edited by fcharton: 13 March 2006 - 11:08 AM

[Liang Jieming]

http://www.guoxue.co...A%B2%DF/zgc.htm

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Hey Fcharton and Wang Yun

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The term "Zhan Guo Qi Xiong" (literally 7 strong warring states) arose from the simple fact that there were 7 major powers which were most talked about by the politicians/ diplomats during the Zhan Guo or Warring State period. But some people misunderstand it to mean that 7 equally strong powers had emerged at the START of that period and/or that all 7 powers survived at the END of that period when the state of Qin swiftly demolished the other 6 states.

I am NOT talking about what should categorize Chun Qiu from Zhan Guo. Nor did I imply that the 7 states are even roughly equal.
However, the first half of the warring states is far from 7 dominating states, or even the 7 strongest. Yue is more powerful than both the Yan and the Han, as well as the Zhao. It is only till its conquest by Chu in 334 B.C. that Yue went out of the picture.

What my point is, is that the term 战国七雄 is a bias created since the vertical alliance and the Qin's conquest of the central plains, it does not apply to the majority of the time of the warring states. The first roughly over 120 years does not fit this picture. Only the last century of the warring state does.

This post has been edited by warhead: 13 March 2006 - 11:08 AM

[fcharton]

warhead, on Mar 13 2006, 05:07 PM, said:

What my point is, is that the term 战国七雄 is a bias created since the vertical alliance and the Qin's conquest of the central plains, it does not apply to the majority of the time of the warring states. The first roughly over 120 years does not fit this picture. Only the last century of the warring state does.

I think we all agree on this. The seven states (or, rather, six plus one) was a name given in hindsight, after Qin fought and conquered the six others. However, the question which the historians who coined the name might have asked is : "when did this period begin?". Interestingly, they chose the split of the Jin, ie the moment when the seven kingdoms all existed (fifth century), rather than the moment when there were only seven left (fourth century). What I find interesting here is that it shows that ancient historians were more interested in the political origins of the 7 states situation than in the precise characterisation of the period (ie the number of states, and whether they were big or not). Again, I would suspect that this shows a Qin bias. Another point worthy of note is that this description became the norm: all modern histories agree on this division of the eatern Zhou dynasty in two phases.

Francois

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

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I think we all agree on this. The seven states (or, rather, six plus one) was a name given in hindsight, after Qin fought and conquered the six others. However, the question which the historians who coined the name might have asked is : "when did this period begin?". Interestingly, they chose the split of the Jin, ie the moment when the seven kingdoms all existed (fifth century), rather than the moment when there were only seven left (fourth century).

Even in the 4th century there were other states left. Qi didn't conquer Song until 286 B.C. While Qin only conquered Zhou until 256 B.C.
Song was actually a quite powerful state that defeated Qi, Chu and Wei and took much of Qi's territory.
Qi decided to put an end to the powerful Song and allied with the Chu and Wei to mount an invasion against it.(originally, Su Qin's plan in 287 was to mount an allied attack against Qin, but Qin gave up territory without a fight, so Su Qin urged Qi to attack Song instead)) The defense of Song was strong and it took much of Qi's resource and manpower to finally destroy the kingdom. Because Qi commited the most troops, Qi refused to share the conquered Song's economic prosperous territory and greatly angered Chu and Qi, this enmity made the alliance of 284 under the lead of Yan possible that brought an end to Qi power.


Notice that Yan only really became powerful during Zhao Wang. At this time Qi was the hegemon of the central plains, the conquest of Yue made Chu a great threat, Qi's Meng Chang Jun allied with Wei and Han and mounted attack after attack at Chu until Chu ceded a huge amount of territory at Nan Yang in 309 B.C., Qi also attacked Qin with Wei and Han in 312 defeating the Qin army again and again. Qin Zhao Wang feared the attack and tried to ally with Zhao and Yan. Zhao had other plans of hegemon itself, Zhao Wu Lin Wang's hoped to stay neutral and observe the war until both Qi and Qin became exhausted, then it will force terms on both.
Yan also had its ambitions of dominance. It planned to attack Qi at the right moment when most of Qi's army is attacking Qin. He called for Zhao's support. Zhao also wanted to attack Qi's dominating power and provided Yan with an army. In 296 Yan's army swept down at Qi wehn its main army is attacking Qin and overwhelmed its border garrisons. At this moment, Qi was still attacking Qin, realizing that Qin's defeat is certain, it turned around and crushed the Yan army. Meanwhile Wei and Han was still attacking the Qin and the Qin was finally defeated in war(Qin still have the Yi barbarians in the west that they had not yet fully subjugated) and ceded its previous territories gained. Han and Wei then turned back to help Qi and attacked the retreating Yan army and totally routed it. Yan lost much of its own territory and an emnity was created between Yan and Qi.
Yet Yan was in no sense crippled. In 295 Yan Zhao Wang decided to ally with the Zhao to put an end to Dong Hu's menace and completely routed them.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

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It is debateable which was weaker: Yan or Han.

The Yan is stronger for the most part. In sofr power, Yan has the most advanced fishing industry in the warring states. Yan exported its sea goods through Zhao to the Central plain. This disrupted Qi's dominating market there.
Yan's iron weapon is also well know for its spear is "as sharp as a bee's sting". Yan's ethnic content is the most mixed and its cavalry, due to its proximity with the Dong Hu is more developed than the Han. Furthermore, Yan's export of its sea food through Qin to Lou Fan and Lin Hu tribes gave it access to greater amount of animal skinand horse. Yan adopted Zhao's Hu Fu Qi She and created a formidable cavalry of its own.