111 replies to this topic

[francotse]

I feel I have to clear some historical facts before answer your question. Cultural Revolution is a word refered to the period between 1966 and 1976. There are several stages during CR and in different stages the target of the movement is different. It's in fact a power struggle within CCP from the beginning to the end. Most of atrocities and damage of cultural heritage were done by the vandalizing Red Guards. Red Guards was a stick Mao used to smash the bureaucratic government. After the government was disabled, Mao feel the Red Guards were getting out of control, so he send them to the countryside to be 're-educated' by the peasants. The vandalizing basically stopped after this stage.

Red Guards is nothing like KGB. It's a loosely organized student organization with numerous hostile fractions inside. They were just normal school and college students with different background. One thing intereting about communism in China is that common people really buy into the system and ideaology. Some of the most atrocious Red Guards were actually from so called 'capitalist' or 'landowner' families, because they want to show they are more revolution than others. One of the results of CR is that most people were disillusioned of communism. The lost of traditional values is a long process. From 54 movement on, confucism along with other traditional values was criticised to be responsible for keeping China backward. CR is just the last straw on the camel's back.

Honestly, I think Confucism is a kind of value system suited to a sedentary algricultural society. Why Confucism was adopted by Korea and Japan but never adopted by nomads? The core value of Confucism is the family. Everything else is for the sake of maintaining a big family. Everybody must sacrifice for the sake of the family, on the other hand the family will take care of its members. If you don't have children, some family member will give you one. If you can't clear your debts, other family members will pay for you. If you do something outlaw, the family will also get involved. In the old society, some very powerful family can negotiate with the government and sometimes even refused to give out the criminal government wanted. The family is a shelter for the individuals in a society that have no other security available. But in modern society, the base of society has changed to individuals. The traditional values seems to be out of place in a modern society. Of course, anyone can reinterpret Confucism to suit his/her own spiritual needs. Even without CR, the traditional values will faded away gradually. Materialism is a common trend in the world not only in China.

how do you think the PRC should solve the problem of morals and values today?

[yehzhaofeng]

^As people get richer, their ways of life changes. Even so, I read that businessmen whom are rich still has trouble with manners and such when doing busienss with foreigners. I;ve heard of private tutors on manners, lol.

You know, any religion can be a good base of good actions. As long as the religion promotes peace, and service to others, it's good. You can't force everyone on Confucianism. China needs to be more lenient on religion.

[Optimus]

I thought Communism forbid religion.

BTW...what sort of Communism do the CCP practise nowadays?

[francotse]

^As people get richer, their ways of life changes. Even so, I read that businessmen whom are rich still has trouble with manners and such when doing busienss with foreigners. I;ve heard of private tutors on manners, lol.

You know, any religion can be a good base of good actions. As long as the religion promotes peace, and service to others, it's good. You can't force everyone on Confucianism. China needs to be more lenient on religion.

ah..... good point, i think the consensus we can all make is that, the cultural rev is a disasturous political movement led by mao and the gang of four in modern Chinese history. its damage is so significant that the after effect can still be seen today.

can we all agree on that?

[jlaporte]

By the way, I think Kaohsiung incident was under the rule of Chiang Ching Kuo, not Chiang Kai Shek.

You are right. What I meant is that the KHH incident, for all its unpleasantness, is next to nothing compared to the horors Chinese (and million others) had to go through during WWII and after.

Talking of Chiang Ching Kuo, the man had the power to maintain the martial law and dictatorship in Taiwan. He decided instead to soften KMT' iron grip. What about this for an achievement towards reconciliation?

[Sephodwyrm]

That effort has to be ignored for TI to take place.

[Zuo Zongtang]

Well, without his leadership during the war against the Japanese , who else is fit to fill his shoe during that time? The communist had wanted to exercute him during the Xian Incident but was stopped by Stalin as even Stalin believe that Chiang and the KMT government was the only political force in China capable of stopping the Japanese invaders. He definitely lived up to it as a giant figure which China needed during the war, the Chongqing Spirit was the main inspiration for the Chinese people during that time.

However, as a military man, I must admit that he is a dictator and not a supporter of democracy like Sun Yat Sen. I would compare him with Winston Churchill. Both are remarkable wartime leaders but failed as peactime leaders. Therefore, I would say his greatest accomplishment is the war against the Japanese, followed by the Northen Expedition against the warlords.

A good military leader? What the hell are you reading? In the battle following Taierzhuang, his victory had the fleeing Japanese army in his clutches. Von Falkenhausen, Chiang's most trusted advisor, tried everything he could to get Chiang to order Chinese forces to pursue. Chiang ignored this advice. In the Battle of Nanjing, von Falkenhausen again advised him to leave the city alone. It served not strategic purpose and could be left behind. Chaing, however, refused. Result? Slaughter in four days. The entire garrison at Nanjing fled in chaos.

And your idea that the eigth route army did nothing: plenty of sources say the opposite. Here is a report comming from 1943.

The Japanese reports made it clear that it was now the Communists who were offering the heavier resistance. Three-quarters of the engagements in north China were against Communist troops. 'Half the corpses collected' an Asahi Shimbun report declared, 'were Communist, while among the 74,000 prisoners captured only 35 per cent were Communist.' The Nationalist troops were weakening, while the morale and the fighting spirit of the Red Army seemed to grow, the report went on...operations against the Communists had now became the main mission of Japan's North China Army.

Taken from When Tigers Fight by Dick Wilson

The only credit I will give to Chiang as a leader is his forging of the Sino-German alliance. Through HARPO agreements, China was able to train enough divisions to fend off Japan for a few months. Otherwise, he was a total failure in my books. It was the German advisors who unified the Chinese army enough to counter Japan, not the work of Chiang.

[naruwan]

A good military leader? What the hell are you reading? In the battle following Taierzhuang, his victory had the fleeing Japanese army in his clutches. Von Falkenhausen, Chiang's most trusted advisor, tried everything he could to get Chiang to order Chinese forces to pursue. Chiang ignored this advice. In the Battle of Nanjing, von Falkenhausen again advised him to leave the city alone. It served not strategic purpose and could be left behind. Chaing, however, refused. Result? Slaughter in four days. The entire garrison at Nanjing fled in chaos.

And your idea that the eigth route army did nothing: plenty of sources say the opposite. Here is a report comming from 1943.



Taken from When Tigers Fight by Dick Wilson

The only credit I will give to Chiang as a leader is his forging of the Sino-German alliance. Through HARPO agreements, China was able to train enough divisions to fend off Japan for a few months. Otherwise, he was a total failure in my books. It was the German advisors who unified the Chinese army enough to counter Japan, not the work of Chiang.

Why are you ignoring the 3 times KMT forces held off the Japanese at 長江 ChangSha?

[jiangji]

The problem for chiang is that he make more mistake than he contibutes. Intent on slowing the japanese advance, Chiang ordered the dykes along the Yangtze cut, to flood low lying plains. The rampaging waters slowed the invaders only a few days, but, in the interval, one million peasants lost their lives. This incident alone costs almost 10% of Chinese casualties in WWII.

Edited by jiangji, 25 March 2006 - 12:26 AM.

[naruwan]

The problem for chiang is that he make more mistake than he contibutes. Intent on slowing the japanese advance, Chiang ordered the dykes along the Yangtze cut, to flood low lying plains. The rampaging waters slowed the invaders only a few days, but, in the interval, one million peasants lost their lives. This incident alone costs almost 10% of Chinese casualties in WWII.

no, that was yellow river, not long river.

[Sephodwyrm]

You must realize the breach of Huayuankou dykes is an act of desperation, and managed to cut off the Japanese drive into the heart of China. But Chiang's planning had been wrong from the start. He could have done much better.

[bhchao]

Chiang should have delegated more to his subordinates instead of micromanaging decisions made on the battlefield. By not delegating and having to authorize every move, Chiang resembled Hitler in that regard.

A good military leader? What the hell are you reading? In the battle following Taierzhuang, his victory had the fleeing Japanese army in his clutches. Von Falkenhausen, Chiang's most trusted advisor, tried everything he could to get Chiang to order Chinese forces to pursue. Chiang ignored this advice.

I have to agree that Chiang should have pursued the remaining Japanese army at Taierzhuang. By not pursuing, he allowed it to join and regroup with other Japanese divisions, who eventually recaptured the town.

If Li Zongren had been given more authority to make decisions at Taierzhuang, what would he have done?

[Liu Bei]

I don't know is he is really a bad guy, I guess it depends on what you think

[JoeBlack]

Here is some information about Chiang's diary

A portion of the diary covering the period 1917 to 1931 will be released on March 31, 2006.
The other portion will be released every year.
The cencored material as requested by Chiang's family will be released after 2035

Here is some comments about

Hoover Institution Opens Early Diaries of Chiang Kai-shek and the Records of the KMT Central Reform Committee

STANFORD—As part of its Modern China Research Project, the Hoover Institution is making available for research significant materials recently added to the Hoover Library and Archives East Asian collections. Photocopies of the early diaries (covering the period 1917 to 1931) of Chiang Kai-shek, the Republic of China's first constitutional president, will be made available to researchers beginning March 31. The Hoover Institution has the diaries on loan.

In addition, the first of the microfilmed Kuomintang (KMT) records are now also available for research; they are of the Central Reform Committee, covering the period 1950–1952. The KMT is the Nationalist Party of the Republic of China.

Hoover Institution director John Raisian said, "The Hoover Institution has long been dedicated to the gathering of unique archival information related to the 20th century with respect to economic, political, and social history in the world. Today, with the opening of portions of Chiang Kai-shek's diaries, we are providing first-hand access to an important period of the generalissimo's life to interested scholars. Further, the opening of KMT records will enable researchers to conduct in-depth study of the evolution of political governance in the Republic of China."

At a special presentation today when he announced the opening of the diaries for research, Hoover senior fellow Ramon Myers commented on the historical significance of the Chiang diaries and of the Central Reform Committee, which was established by Chiang in Taiwan.

Myers said that the early Chiang diaries were copied and circulated within a small group of scholars in China. After 1950 the KMT continued to select, edit, and publish many of Chiang's diary entries. "As none of these published materials accurately represented the original diaries, now, for the first time, researchers can read the authentic diaries," Myers said.

Chiang family members deposited the handwritten diaries of Chiang Kai-shek and his son Chiang Ching-kuo, third constitutional president, at the Hoover Institution in 2005, pending the creation of a suitable repository on the territory of China. Microfilm preservation copies of the complete diaries are being made while they are on loan to Hoover.

As the Chiang's diaries are too fragile for researchers to examine, the Hoover Archives is making photocopies of the originals for researchers to examine. The diaries to be opened on March 31 cover only a small period of Chiang's career; the remainder of the diaries will be opened over the next few years. Because of the uninhibited nature of many personal comments in the diaries, family members have chosen to keep some passages private and have redacted these from user copies. Recognizing the historical significance of the diaries in their entirety, however, family members have authorized that the redacted passages be released in 2035.

The Hoover Institution has cooperated with the KMT since 2003 to preserve the official historical records of the party's archives in Taipei. As the oldest political party in Asia, the KMT acted as China's leading revolutionary party until it was defeated in 1949 by Chinese Communist Party forces and forced to relocate in Taiwan. On August 5, 1950 the KMT formally established the Central Reform Committee to create a new political organization. In October 1952 the Seventh National Congress of the Kuomintang adopted the Central Reform Committee's final reports, affirming the formation of a new Kuomintang. These records were microfilmed in Taipei. One copy was given to the Kuomintang Archives, another use copy was deposited at the Hoover Institution, and a positive microfilm master copy has been stored at the Hoover Institution.

http://www-hoover.st...2006/03kmt.html

[Zuo Zongtang]

Chiang should have delegated more to his subordinates instead of micromanaging decisions made on the battlefield. By not delegating and having to authorize every move, Chiang resembled Hitler in that regard.
I have to agree that Chiang should have pursued the remaining Japanese army at Taierzhuang. By not pursuing, he allowed it to join and regroup with other Japanese divisions, who eventually recaptured the town.

If Li Zongren had been given more authority to make decisions at Taierzhuang, what would he have done?

He was the man who set the trap in the Taierzhuang battle, outsmarting Isogai with his encirling movement. He knows when to take advantage of the situation. Under his command was the remainder of the German trained divisions. He would have definately sent these elite troops in pursuit. How far he would have gone, I don't know, but I think he definately would strike back.