50 replies to this topic

[Yun]

The term Ri Ben is already in use during the yuan and perhaps the Song, I found that term in Yuan Shi.

I recently read the Xin Tang Shu (written by Ouyang Xiu in the Northern Song), and in the chapter on the Dongyi 东夷, it reads:

日本，古倭奴也。Translation: Riben (Japan) was formerly known as the Wo slaves.

... 后稍习夏音，恶倭名，更号日本。使者言，国近日所出，以为名。或云日本乃小国，为倭所并，故冒其号。使者不以清，故疑焉。

Translation: Later, when they became a little familiar with the Han language, they disliked the name of 'Wo' and changed their name to Riben. Their envoy said that their land is near where the sun rises, hence the name (meaning 'source of the sun'). On another occasion, he said that Riben was a small state that the Wo had conquered, and they adopted its name. The envoy did not make himself clear, and so we remain doubtful about the real reason.

[tongyan]

thakn you so much for your comments. very informational and insightful. i knew that the kimono is descended from han clothing but never knew it was called wu-fu. so did it originate in the eastern area of china, therefore wu 吳?

Mentioned this in AE.

yep, Japanese called themselves Wa.  Which the others give it the Kanji that means short.

The Japanese did use this Kanji.  They didn't like it but that was what everyone called them.  So instead of 倭 Wou, Wa how ever you like to read this Kanji, the Japanese used another kanji that sounds the same when they write it down.  That Kanji being 和 Wa.

It wasn't until later that Japanese realized that it is kind of an insult.  So they change the Kanji from 倭 to 和.

Also, kimono in Japanese actually is style of clothing from the central plane.

It is called Wu Fu, or 吳服.

The Japanese did not change the name to 和服 around the start of World War 2 for nationalist reasons.

Proof:





Japanese posters of Mitsukoshi, a famous Japanese department store which started out as simply just a kimono store.

I believe the word Kimono 吳服 (Wu-Fu) is quiet obvious.

This style of female outfit is the main stream woman outfit from late Warring states to North-South era.  Of course, as time passed on, the choice of patterns and style has some changes.  But just like the Han barrowed the horse riding pants from the nomads, kimono is barrowed from the Han as well.

To understand the relationship between 耶馬台 and 大和 and the word Yamato, I suggest learning about how Kanji is used in Japan.  Since Kanji is a barrowed writting, sometime the Japanese just used the Kanji to write out that they used to call that thing.  Which mean the writting and the phonetics doesn't always have a relationship.

Which is exactly the case for Yamato and 大和

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[Yun]

Yes, the earliest Chinese cultural influence on Japan came from the Wu area. That's why the earliest Japanese pronunciations for Chinese characters are called Go-on (Wu yin, 'Wu language').

[thirdgumi]

Why are there 3 stats for manchuria and north China, 2 stats for central and NW China?

[MengTzu]

I'm not sure, Maybe I'm wrong, but we do call either the North or SOuth Gao Li, pronounced Go Lai Guo in Cantonese. Which basically means Korygo, a powerful kingdom in Korea. I like using Cantonese sometimes, it really has ancient roots and pronounciations.

Hanguk in Cantonese, Hongok. I'm not very good at Korean History, did Chosun come from Korygo as a Dynasty?

That's odd. I lived in Hong Kong for 12 years, and we always call them the Nam Hon (Nan Han) and Bek Hon (Bei Han), just like the Taiwanese would. Often Nam Hon is just the default Hon, while Bek Hon is always Bek Hon. South Korea is evidently accorded more "legitimacy" by people in Hong Kong. Golai (Gaoli) and Chiuseen (Caoxin) are thought of as more traditional, historical names that aren't used often when referring to the modern nations of North and South Korea.