[Shogun 144]

Hi all,


I was looking through some books I have on Japanese history and noticed that during the reign of Suiko Tenno, the first female monarch of Japan (well there is Jingu but she is a myth), the Imperial Court of Yamato sent the following letter to the Emperor of China, Sui Yangdi:

"From the Land of the Rising Sun, to the Land of the Setting Sun: Greetings"

Did Suiko, or her son the Prince Shotoku, really send this to Sui Yangdi? I am asking because I have caught some errors in my book before, although most of them were minor. If Suiko, or Shotoku, really sent that to Emperor Yang then that is some definate pluck on the part of the Japanese. During those days Japan was little more than a small duck in a dragon's pond. Not only that but although Sui Yangdi was a lunkhead, he was a powerful lunkhead, and given his short temper I find it amazing he did not invade over the insult, if it happened.

Thanks in advance,

Shogun 144

[Nagaeyari]

I have some information on the letter sent...but could you first list the book(s) from which your question arose from?

I wouldn't want to be redundant or useless to you.

Thanks
nagaeyari

[WangKon936]

Shogun 144, on Apr 23 2006, 08:54 PM, said:

Hi all,
I was looking through some books I have on Japanese history and noticed that during the reign of Suiko Tenno, the first female monarch of Japan (well there is Jingu but she is a myth), the Imperial Court of Yamato sent the following letter to the Emperor of China, Sui Yangdi:

"From the Land of the Rising Sun, to the Land of the Setting Sun: Greetings"

Did Suiko, or her son the Prince Shotoku, really send this to Sui Yangdi? I am asking because I have caught some errors in my book before, although most of them were minor. If Suiko, or Shotoku, really sent that to Emperor Yang then that is some definate pluck on the part of the Japanese. During those days Japan was little more than a small duck in a dragon's pond. Not only that but although Sui Yangdi was a lunkhead, he was a powerful lunkhead, and given his short temper I find it amazing he did not invade over the insult, if it happened.

It really happened. The event is recorded in the Nihongi as well as Chinese sources (I think). Of course the statement shocked the Sui Dynasty and was rather offenseive. It was poorly conceived and told the Chinese that the Japanese were completely igrorant of their place in the Chinese centered world order. Probably why they had to send envoys with the Paekje delegation instead of directly on their own.

This post has been edited by WangKon936: 24 April 2006 - 01:26 AM

[Nagaeyari]

WangKon936, on Apr 24 2006, 01:25 AM, said:

It was poorly conceived and told the Chinese that the Japanese were completely igrorant of their place in the Chinese centered world order.

Could you clarify your statement? The Japanese, in my opinion, were definitely *not* ignorant of their place in the Chinese society. Since Himiko's time, bilateral relations between China and Japan relied on titles and court procedures.

If I misunderstood and you were simply stating what the Chinese could have *felt,* then alright.

nagaeyari

[DaMo]

Perhaps his intentions were misinterpreted. Shotoku Taishi would most likely have had great respect for China, having learnt much from Chinese philosophy, literature and culture. I don't think "Land of the Setting Sun" meant disrespect, any more than "Land of the Rising Sun" meant adulation. It could be no more than poetics.

[caocao74]

DaMo, on Apr 24 2006, 05:17 PM, said:

Perhaps his intentions were misinterpreted. Shotoku Taishi would most likely have had great respect for China, having learnt much from Chinese philosophy, literature and culture. I don't think "Land of the Setting Sun" meant disrespect, any more than "Land of the Rising Sun" meant adulation. It could be no more than poetics.

I'd have to agree with DaMo. Shotoku was a Sinophile, who learnt much from Chinese Sui models of governance, and I very much doubt the use of the afore mentioned terms was meant as a slur.

[wuTao]

I think the main point of contention in this letter was that the Japanese Imperial Court's introduction went along the lines of: "From the Son of Heaven of the Land of the Rising Sun, to the Son of Heaven of the Land of the Setting Sun". The Chinese were not insulted by the fact that the Japanese referred to China as "Land of the Setting Sun", but because the Japanese Emperor referred to himself as "Son of Heaven". This would show ignorance on the Japanese side to Chinese thinking, as according to Chinese philosphy, there can only be one "Son of Heaven".

[Nagaeyari]

The issue was definitely the "audacity" of the Japanese reference to himself being the Son of Heaven.

The full greeting is as follows:

"The Son of Heaven in the land of the rising sun addresses a letter to the Son of Heaven in the land of the setting sun. We hope you are in good health."

Year: 608
Ambassador to China: Ono no Imoko


I don't have my books with me, but I believe this was from Suiko, not Shotoku Taishi. Not saying he had nothing to do with the letter or the dictation, however.

[DaMo]

wuTao, on Apr 25 2006, 12:25 AM, said:

I think the main point of contention in this letter was that the Japanese Imperial Court's introduction went along the lines of: "From the Son of Heaven of the Land of the Rising Sun, to the Son of Heaven of the Land of the Setting Sun". The Chinese were not insulted by the fact that the Japanese referred to China as "Land of the Setting Sun", but because the Japanese Emperor referred to himself as "Son of Heaven". This would show ignorance on the Japanese side to Chinese thinking, as according to Chinese philosphy, there can only be one "Son of Heaven".

Oh, I didn't know about the Son of Heaven part. I suppose that could be taken the wrong way.

So they have the One Child Policy in heaven too, eh?

[caocao74]

Nagaeyari, on Apr 25 2006, 09:55 AM, said:

I don't have my books with me, but I believe this was from Suiko, not Shotoku Taishi. Not saying he had nothing to do with the letter or the dictation, however.

As I understand the situation then, Suiko was rather a non-entity in terms of authority the rubber stamp for the Soga (primarily in the form of her regent Shotoku)

[Peng]

Shouldn't Suiko refer herself as a Child of Heaven? She's female...

EDIT: I mean shouldn't it be translated as Child of Heaven since she's empress/female.

"日出處天子致日落處天子"

This post has been edited by Peng: 25 April 2006 - 10:44 AM

[Nagaeyari]

Wang Zhenping notes that Emperor Yang (Sui Yangdi? What is the difference here?) did not become discourteous or rude because of beginning/preparatory military actions against Koguryo...angering Japan could cause them to slide over to Koguryo's side in a possible upcoming war. I hope that helps, Shogun 144.

While "rubber-stamp" seems harsh in my book, it's not extremely far from the truth it seems.

Soga no Umako was the regent (sessho) under Suiko, and he is the one who actually handled the state government. Suiko was known for her character and abilities, so I don't believe that she had nothing to do with state affairs, however. It's interesting to note that Suiko actually was from the Soga family.

I am still trying to find out who would have handled the composition of the 608 letter. Historically, it's mentioned that Suiko read the Sui return letter and consulted Shotoku Taishi on its meaning (intricacies), so she did have involvement of sorts in that manner.

Do you have any information on what is red above?

The intention of using of "tenshi" (tianzi) by the Japanese seems to only be an assertion of their growing power and cementing of state ruling. I don't believe it was meant to irk the Sui. It was definitely meant to make a statement, though.

I'm trying to find more in a few books...I will have to edit my post later.

EDIT: Interesting. It seems Japanese deviation from Chinese letter etiquette was not begun in 608. A humorous and distinct break from the etiquette was undertaken in the 600 letter to Sui. By removing "King of Wo" (wowang) and subject" in the letter, the Japanese attempted to raise their status.

Now, for the humor: the Japanese included "abei jimi amei duolisibigu" (Chinese of Okimi Ametarashihiko--"Heavenly Emperor," whether male or *female*). The Sui, however, believed that "A-mei" was the family name of the ruler, and "Duolisibigu" was the first name...The Sui believed that Duolisibigu was the name for Suiko.

Diplomatic confusion spreads so far back

This post has been edited by Nagaeyari: 25 April 2006 - 03:22 PM

[Shogun 144]

Ahh....

Thanks everyone for your contributions, I think I understand more now about the incident. I also discovered that my book was wrong again, this time on a major matter. My book has Shotoku Taishi listed as Suiko Tenno's son. He's her nephew! Oy!

Okay let me see if I understand this now: Suiko Tenno and Shotoku Taishi composed this letter to send to Sui Yangdi as a means of asserting themselves. They did this by addressing Suiko not as Wowang (King of Wo), which was what the Chinese Imperial Court had always referred to the Japanese ruler as, but as Tianzhi (Son of Heaven) a title that the Chinese believed they alone could claim. But Shotoku Taishi at the same time did not wish to irk the Sui dynasty, but ended up doing so anyway because Sui Yangdi was touchy on titles and authority

Right?

[Shogun 144]

Another thing I noticed. Female rulers in Asia, like the Japanese Empresses who ruled alone without a husband, or with a weakwilled husband and Wu Zetian and the wanna-bes who tried to copy her referred themselves by the exact same title as the men did, but not by the title of Empress. Why is that? hmm....

Sorry for being off topic but it is a intriguing matter to me.

[Nagaeyari]

Again, are you at liberty to share the name of this book?

I have no idea *who* composed the letter, sadly, either initially, mentally, or with ink and paper.

For all intensive purposes, let's say it was Shotoku Taishi and Suiko-Tenno as you have suggested. They operated as a joint-letter writing team for our example

I don't see the contradiction.

In the light of the 600 letter in which Japanese authoritarian assertions were misinterpreted by the Sui, the Japanese had all the more reason to continue or even step-up their drive.

To assert oneself and to intentionally rile a neighboring kingdom stand at opposite ends in my mind.

As for the issue of titles that encompass both sexes, refer to Joan Piggott's The Emergence of Japanese Kingship. Sadly, it's been a good two years since I've read this book. I'll try to regurgitate what I can:

A title like "tenno" really isn't sex-inclusive. It applies to a position. Therefore, Kougyoku and Suiko can hold the title with no problem.

The Okimi Ametarashihiko title mentioned in my last post is also non-inclusive, as mentioned.

Therefore, it was not a willfull "feminist" stand of any sort.

The only thing I could see (which really doesn't apply to Tenno, from all I've read) would be a desire to intimidate or justify one's rule, if one was female. Of course, this would be in the highly male dominated world of East Asia.

Great questions...really gets you thinking. Keep this up!