158 replies to this topic

[xng]

I would like to compile a list of lost hokkien words that most malaysian/singaporean have forgotten due to decades of borrowing malay words. Would appreciate contribution from taiwanese.

Malay Words
---------------

1. Like / Su-ka / Ka Ee 合意

2. Marry / Kah-win / Kiet Hoon 結婚

3. Clever / Pa-Nai (Pandai) / K'iau 巧 or Gau

4. Disturb / Ka-cau / Kiau Liau

5. Recently / Ba-Lu (Baru)/ Cui Kin 最近 or Tu Cia

6. Market / Pa-sak (Pasar)/ C'i Tio 市場

7. Police / Ma-ta (Mata Mata) / King C'aat 警 察

8. Quarrel / Ga-duh / Uan Kay 冤家

9. Easy / Si-nang (Senang) / Kan Tan 簡 單

10. Money / Lui (Duit) / Ci(n) 錢

11. Waste / Sa-yang / P'a Seng

12. Help / To-long / Pai T'ok 拜 託

13. All / Sa-ma (Semua) / Cuan Poh 全部 or Long Cong 攏 總

14. Offense / Sa-lah / Huan Huat 犯法

15. But / Ta-pi (Tetapi) / Tan Si 但是 or Mm Ko

16. Withstand / Ta-han / Tong 擋

17. Also / Pun / Ma

18. Where / Ma-na / To ui

19. Bread / Lo-ti (Roti) / Mi Pau 麵包

20. Guess / A-gak / Ioh


Cantonese in origin
--------------------

1. Cheap / P'inn 平 (P'eng in cantonese) / Siok


Hokkien words different from Taiwan hokkien
-------------------------------------------

1. Want/ Ai 愛 / Beh

2. Can / Ay Sai 會使 / Ing

3. Nonsense / Luan 亂 (講) / O Pek (講)

4. You / Le or Lu 汝 / Li 你

5. Wrong / C'o 錯 / Mm Tiuk 毋著

6. Place to live / K'ia / Tua

7. Thanks / Kam Sia 感謝 / To Sia 多謝

8. Help out / Tau K'a 骹 C'iu 手 / Tau Sa Kang

9. Coffee / Ko Pi / Ka Pi

Edited by xng, 21 February 2010 - 09:30 AM.

[General_Zhaoyun]

5. Recently / Baru / ?

Recently - Tiong Gyhm/Dong Kim 当今 (Singapore Hokkien)
- Chyui Gyhm/Zui Kim 最近 (Taiwanese)

6. Market / Pasar / ?

Market - Cyee Dyieu/Qi Diung 市场

[xng]

Recently - Tiong Gyhm/Dong Kim 当今 (Singapore Hokkien)
- Chyui Gyhm/Zui Kim 最近 (Taiwanese)
Market - Cyee Dyieu/Qi Diung 市场

Some questions.

Dong Gim is the meaning for 'now' and not 'recently'. This is used correctly by malaysian/singaporean.

Shouldn't it be 'Zui gin' instead of 'Zui gim' ?

Why are there two sounds for market ie. Dyieu and Diung ?

Edited by xng, 27 April 2006 - 11:43 PM.

[Hang Li Po]

My Old Post

http://www.chinahist...topic=1435&st=0

Malaysian Cantonese

This is for those who are interested in learning more about the origin of certain words.

It may shock certain people that certain words they have been using since childhood are actually not cantonese words.

Hokkien words:
------------------

1. "Ka Ki" - should be "Ji Kei" for "ownself" as in "ngo ji kei"

2. "diam" - silent, it should be "on jing".

3. "pai" - number of times, it should be "chi"


Malay word
--------------

1. "Sinang" - twisted version of "Senang" - should be "Yung Yi"

2. "Lui" - chinese version of "Duit" for money - should be "Chin"

3. "Sama" - mispronounciation of "Semua" for all - should be "Chuin Pou"

4. "Pasak" - chinese version of malay word "pasar" for market.
The proper cantonese word for market is "Si Chap", night market is "Yeh Si".

5. "Mata" - old version of malay word "Mata- mata" for police. Should be "Chai Yan" or "King Chak".

English
-------

Nowadays, those malay educated chinese use a lot of english words (as high as 70%) because their command of the chinese language is poor.

[xng]

My Old Post

Malaysian Cantonese

I was the original author of that list which you copied elsewhere. See my thread on 'malaysian cantonese' in this subforum.

http://www.chinahist...wtopic=9443&hl=

If you have any contributions on cantonese, please post your reply there.

Anyway, this is a thread on hokkien and not cantonese.

Edited by xng, 28 April 2006 - 01:21 AM.

[qrasy]

2. Marry / Kahwin / Giat Hoon 結婚

Now... using this kind of "fake voiced" Romanization, how are you going to represent the real voiced sound?

Did the malay borrow from the hokkien because kacau and 'giau jiau' sound similar .

How about Mandarin 糟糕 zao1gao1, also sound quite similar

10. Money / Lui (duit) / Ji 錢

I always have the doubt of Lui being from Malay...
錢 tsi(n) [(n)=nasalization, an effect on the vowel, hear a little bit "strange" for those who never heard that]
Is the (n) is losing the place in Malaysian/Singaporean Hokkien? Or simply Cantonese/Mandarin speakers can't hear it? e.g. 行=kia(n).

8. Quarrel / Gaduh / ?

9. Easy / Senang / ?

11. Waste / Sayang / Pa Seng

12. Help / Tolong / Bai Tok 拜 託

14. Offense / Salah / Huan Huat 犯法

.... wrong Malay words usage?
e.g. Easy = Mudah?

Shouldn't it be 'Zui gin' instead of 'Zui gim' ?

It should. Mandarin speakers learning Southern dialects usually have this kind of problem... (m n ending confusion)

Why are there two sounds for market ie. Dyieu and Diung ?

One is nasalized, one is not.
Might be Zhangzhou vs Quanzhou, or might be Literary vs Colloquial.

I was the original author of that list which you copied elsewhere.

Yes... a very old topic in www.chineselanguage.org by AlexNg.

[xng]

How about Mandarin 糟糕 zao1gao1, also sound quite similar

.... wrong Malay words usage?
e.g. Easy = Mudah?

The malays had the earliest contacts with the hokkien, so mandarin being northern is definitely out. Examples are "Teh" for tea, "Mee Hoon" for vermicelli which are clearly hokkien.

Singaporean/Malaysian chinese use 'senang' instead of 'mudah' (which are synonyms or similar meaning) for their borrowed word.

There might be a soft 'n' at the end of 'Ji' for money but hardly noticeable.

Edited by xng, 28 April 2006 - 10:20 AM.

[qrasy]

The malays had the earliest contacts with the hokkien, so mandarin being northern is definitely out.

I mean... why not coincidence??

Singaporean/Malaysian chinese use 'senang' instead of 'mudah' (which are synonyms or similar meaning) for their borrowed word.

I treat this as misuse... 'senang' is always 'happy' to me.
The closest thing I can think about this is that this is 'easy' of 'comfortable' rather than 'not difficult', or a shortened form of 'easy-going'.
[edit: also "free and easy"]

There might be a soft 'n' at the end of 'Ji' for money but hardly noticeable.

The (n) is soft and more similar to ng than n. But I'm not sure if this sound is not failing in places overseas.
Have you learned something about French? This is the same thing as the "lost nasal consonants" of French.
Also, sometimes I hear Indonesians produce "ain" consonant of Arabic (incorrectly) as nasalization after the consonant.

Edited by qrasy, 28 April 2006 - 10:59 AM.

[xng]

I mean... why not coincidence??

It is too much coincidence if the following conditions are met:

1. It is hokkien language which the malays have the earliest contact with

2. Giau Jiau sounds so similar to Kacau. (Unless the pronounciation is Giau Liau which is different enough)

3. It has the same meaning.

Edited by xng, 28 April 2006 - 11:20 AM.

[qrasy]

About the "Giau Jiau", are you giving me real voiced or fake voiced Hokkien?
If it's voiced then it would cause the similarity to decrease highly, and I can see the (voiced) J/L relation....

[xng]

About the "Giau Jiau", are you giving me real voiced or fake voiced Hokkien?
If it's voiced then it would cause the similarity to decrease highly, and I can see the (voiced) J/L relation....

Edited by xng, 10 May 2006 - 07:12 AM.

[xng]

About the "Giau Jiau", are you giving me real voiced or fake voiced Hokkien?
If it's voiced then it would cause the similarity to decrease highly, and I can see the (voiced) J/L relation....

It is 'J' as in 'Lee Lien Jie' in "Jet li".

It seems that the malay borrowed several words from hokkien.

Teh
Mee Hoon
Diam
Giau Jiau - kacau

Edited by xng, 10 May 2006 - 07:16 AM.

[qrasy]

It is 'J' as in 'Lee Lien Jie' in "Jet li".

Lee Lien Jie -> Voiceless. More like Malay 'c'.

It seems that the malay borrowed several words from hokkien.

Teh
Mee Hoon

Special commodities that did not originally exist in Indonesia or Malaysia -- of course the best way is to loan from others.

Diam

Again, how is it pronounced in Hokkien? One syllable? 2 Syllables?

Giau Jiau - kacau

How about the 'G'?

[xng]

Again, how is it pronounced in Hokkien? One syllable? 2 Syllables?

How about the 'G'?

One sound, just like 'siam'.

Since hokkien distinguish between three types unlike mandarin and cantonese, I have made changes to the pinyin. Please see my first post in this thread.

It would be

j - jit 日
c - ciak 食
c - c'i(n) 青

and

b - bay 馬
p - pa 爸
p' - p'ak 拍

and

g - gong 戇
k - kang 港
k' - k'ang 空

and

t - tiong 中
t' - t'ang 通

Edited by xng, 11 May 2006 - 09:02 PM.

[qrasy]

One sound, just like 'siam'.

Now, I'm thinking about the "d" in "diam". The Hokkien variant there seems not to have a "d" sound. (there is some variants who use a "d" when you expect "j" and "l" in other variant)
e.g.
ding 冷
di 二

Malay do distinguish "t" and "d", and they are not "conditioned variant".

It would be

j - jit 日
c - ciak 食
c - c'i(n) 青

A subtle thing about the ending: 食 should not have a -k ending, but rather glottal stop... represented by '-h' or '-q'. (I'm not sure regular Malaysian/Indonesian will distinguish these sounds).

b - bay 馬

I'm not sure if the rime is 'ay' (I think it should be "be", e as in café)