165 replies to this topic

[urofpersia]

FYI,

Yiguandao, a technically Daoist religion already incorporates Jesus Christ in its 'pantheon'. It is a syncretic faith which is chinese in origin. While not deifying any particular entity into an existing pantheon as what GZ mention, I think this is an example of how Jesus Christ and Christianity can be incorporated in a Chinese religion.

[Elisha]

FYI,

Yiguandao, a technically Daoist religion already incorporates Jesus Christ in its 'pantheon'. It is a syncretic faith which is chinese in origin. While not deifying any particular entity into an existing pantheon as what GZ mention, I think this is an example of how Jesus Christ and Christianity can be incorporated in a Chinese religion.

It's like what Wang Yun's said about "re-interpretation" above.

[urofpersia]

It's like what Wang Yun's said about "re-interpretation" above.

Consider that much of any faith is based on interpretaton. For Christianity the RC has one interpretation. The various other denominations have their own interpretations as well. Whether something is regarded as Christianity largely depends on whether folks agree it is.

Yiguandao chose to embrace Jesus Christ and his teachings and thus incorporate them into its larger set of teachings and religion.

Yiguandao recognses the teachings of 5 religions; Daoism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam and incorporates them all into its teachings of Dao.

[Elisha]

Consider that much of any faith is based on interpretaton. For Christianity the RC has one interpretation. The various other denominations have their own interpretations as well. Whether something is regarded as Christianity largely depends on whether folks agree it is.

There's a difference between Christians interpreting it and other people interpreting it. The different denominations still hold the same fundamental beliefs. One of which is that there's only one God and only one way. It's different from the all-embracing character of Yiguando.

Yiguandao chose to embrace Jesus Christ and his teachings and thus incorporate them into its larger set of teachings and religion.

Yiguandao recognses the teachings of 5 religions; Daoism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam and incorporates them all into its teachings of Dao.

What the latter has done, is that it has embraced perceived christian teachings and Jesus. My view is that the extent of the 're-interpretation' makes it no longer Christianity.

Err, "Obviously"-- but "syncretization" means "melding different things together", otherwise it would just one religion "taking over" another like how the Buddhist Uighurs became Muslim Uighurs in northwestern China.
I understand that it's offensive to some people when religion is analysed as a social-philosophical phenomenon (Marxist dialectic materialist view of history at work!). But it's also perfectly acceptable to others (like the Buddhism, which is very open to "interpretation" & "re-interpretion"), so I'm going to say it anyway-- people can disagree on what is "fundamental" to a religion to a very great degree, especially over time/distance.

I do not agree on your observation that people can disagree on what is fundamental to a religion to a very great degree. But 'fundamental' is subjective and we're talking in generalities here. If you can out to something more specific?

I mean, hasn't Christian "dogma" has always been erm, "evolving" since Jesus' time? Taking the authority/ dogma/ text as at one or more times or places as fundamental will simply raise the question of why this particular time &/or place-- which usually comes down to it being an "understanding/ interpretation" which more closely reflects what Jesus "intended" (according to the person looking at or coming up with this "understanding/ interpretation").

You have hit the nail on its head!

I had the query before. I thought the bible is subject to man's interpretation. How can 'truth' evolve? Actually, it doesn't. If one reads the text on it's own in context and not just listen to man's dogma.

Okay, I will bow out now since I'm not qualified to discuss which Christian qualities are fundamental AND incompatible with being "Chinese"-- like I mentioned earlier, what qualifies a religion as Chinese?

Okay, just my POV then as a Christian and a Chinese brought up in a taoist/buddhist family.

China embraces so many religions and ideology.

In relation to worship going on in the temples (present day taoism), Jesus is incompatible as a chinese deity. For the reasons which I briefly described in my first post here.

In relation to chinese ideology - okay, no expert. I've just briefly glanced through the english translations of some sayings by Laozi(?) elsewhere in this forum and also in reference to daoism and buddhism.

Ideology talks about meditation, finding meaning in the way, what is the truth, yin-yang factors, karma - basically using some sort of methology of thought to understand. To me, chinese philosophy/ideology poses the question and directs and proposes a way of thought but not an answer. The premise is that one is supposed to find the answer (or in oneself?), the point of 'enlightenment'

IMO, ideology is but the starting question. What is the way? Christianity says, the way is not found within oneself. It is found in a Person. That the answer is not in the 'how', it is in the 'who'.

Edited by Elisha, 01 May 2006 - 09:38 AM.

[urofpersia]

There's a difference between Christians interpreting it and other people interpreting it.

And it begs the question who defines who are Christians and who are not? The point is that very often interpretation also includes definitions in many areas including considering who are those of the faith and who are not.

The different denominations still hold the same fundamental beliefs. One of which is that there's only one God and only one way.

It's different from the all-embracing character of Yiguando.
What the latter has done, is that it has embraced perceived christian teachings and Jesus. My view is that the extent of the 're-interpretation' makes it no longer Christianity.

Exactly, which is why I said earlier:

Whether something is regarded as Christianity largely depends on whether folks agree it is.

My point is seen from the view of a specific religion it has adequately incorporated Jesus Christ and his teachings into their religion. I was highlighting Yiguandao as an example of where a Chinese religion has done what GZ mention earlier, although I am quick to point out GZ's premise and specific examples are more the folk/pantheonistic religion of the Chinese people, neither purely Daoism or Buddhism.

One possible reason you not be able to see what I am trying to say is because you are looking at the matter from a Christian point of view (a subset at that) If you distance yourself I think you can see how from the point of view of Yiguandao they have managed to syncretise Christianity. Whether the majority of those who call themselves Christians can accept it is quite another matter.

[DaMo]

What the latter has done, is that it has embraced perceived christian teachings and Jesus. My view is that the extent of the 're-interpretation' makes it no longer Christianity.

It's not supposed to be. Look, we're discussing how Jesus/Muhammad could be assimilated into traditional Chinese religious systems, not how the latter could be turned into another Christian sect.

[Elisha]

And it begs the question who defines who are Christians and who are not? The point is that very often interpretation also includes definitions in many areas including considering who are those of the faith and who are not.

Quite simply actually. A believer is defined here

One possible reason you not be able to see what I am trying to say is because you are looking at the matter from a Christian point of view (a subset at that)

You're right. To me, it's pretty clearcut.

If you distance yourself I think you can see how from the point of view of Yiguandao they have managed to syncretise Christianity. Whether the majority of those who call themselves Christians can accept it is quite another matter.

Yes, it does seem subjective doesn't it? Wherever there are issues that relate to Christianity, I just refer to the bible. We just have one book. It cuts through the ambiguity for me.

I'm looking at the question from a Christian point of view 'cos the issue talks about christianity. Don't quite see how it could be any other way. Otherwise, it would be perceived christianity.

But I see where you're coming from. And I'm not trying to convince anyone. There seemingly can be no 'right' answer because we're approaching the question from different angles.

[lanjingling]

There's a difference between Christians interpreting it and other people interpreting it. The different denominations still hold the same fundamental beliefs. One of which is that there's only one God and only one way. It's different from the all-embracing character of Yiguando.
Jesus is incompatible as a chinese deity. For the reasons which I IMO, ideology is but the starting question. What is the way? Christianity says, the way is not found within oneself. It is found in a Person. That the answer is not in the 'how', it is in the 'who'.

From a Jewish point of view , the Trinity could show that Christianism is not a monotheism.
I think that the only thing that everybody (Christians & non-Christians as well) will accept that defines a Christian is the fact that Jesus came as a saviour (so I agre with you when you write that Christianity says that the way is found in a Person ).
Now , who is Jesus ? Some Christians says he is God , some others (a minority) says he is only the son of God but not a God himself . One could argue that he maybe be not the only saviour (for the catholics , the Virgin Mary was saved before the birth of her son). Then , Yiguandao could be considered as Christians .
Actually, there's already been some Christians sects in China a long time ago (Nestorians) , so from a materialistic point of view , Christianism is (or has been) a Chinese religion , amongst others (the same for Judaism & Islam).
But IMHO (i know that some will disagree), proselytism is central to Christianity (to let the whole world know that Jesus came as a saviour). Very few is known about Nestorians in China , but did they also practice proselytism ? & if not , can we still look at them as Christians (i'm talking here only of the Nestorians who would not practice proselytism) if they do not want to spread the "Good New" ?

Edited by lanjingling, 01 May 2006 - 09:29 PM.

[Elisha]

It's not supposed to be. Look, we're discussing how Jesus/Muhammad could be assimilated into traditional Chinese religious systems, not how the latter could be turned into another Christian sect.

Erm, yes - that issue never came up. Did you think I implied it?

I was responding to Ur who said,

Yiguandao chose to embrace Jesus Christ and his teachings and thus incorporate them into its larger set of teachings and religion.

Yiguandao recognses the teachings of 5 religions; Daoism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam and incorporates them all into its teachings of Dao.

and I replied,

What the latter has done, is that it has embraced perceived christian teachings and Jesus. My view is that the extent of the 're-interpretation' makes it no longer Christianity.

Hereto, the 'version' the Yiguandao has recognised and incorporated is no longer the same Christianity that is worshipped worldwide. I did not say how Yiguando should be turned into another christian sect.

Of course, anyone can call what they believe christianity - that does not make it christianity. There must be something objective to measure it against - some authority.

In order to answer the question posed in this thread, one needs to know what christianity IS. Not what it is perceived as. Taking the latter track of analysis would just bring us on a round-about, because we will be simply airing opinions.

The Christians make no bones that there's only one book of reference. So even as a non-believer, go straight to the "christian authority' (whether you believe it or not because the christians do and they are the ones to define what christianity is) Just as I can't say who Allah is unless I have access and read the Quran for myself.

If you knew the tenets of the christian faith (which is the same regardless of denominations, it is totally incapable of merging with another religion) You don't have to agree with me but I think there should be some objectivity when one is referring to a Christian 'standard'. For example, the fundamental truths of christianity, here (note the first 5 points. Denominations differ regarding the points after. But we all agree to these 5 points. That's the difference between us and other 'religions' like the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses' which also feature Jesus Christ.

IMO, christianity syncretism into chinese religion is impossible because the extent of "re-interpretation" (the fundamental truths that make the faith) makes it no longer christianity.

Edited by Elisha, 01 May 2006 - 09:47 PM.

[DaMo]

Of course, anyone can call what they believe christianity - that does not make it christianity.

And my point is that Yiguandao does not call itself Christianity, nor does it claim in the least to absorb Christianity in its entirety.

IMO, christianity syncretism into chinese religion is impossible because the extent of "re-interpretation" (the fundamental truths that make the faith) makes it no longer christianity.

Makes what "no longer Christianity"? Do you think any syncretist movement can conceivably assimilate the "fundamental truths" of ALL religions at the same time? Syncretism is about reinterpretation, and doesn't claim to pander to purists.

Hereto, the 'version' the Yiguandao has recognised and incorporated is no longer the same Christianity that is worshipped worldwide. I did not say how Yiguando should be turned into another christian sect.

Well, if Yiguandao were to assimilate, without exception, these "fundamental truths" of Christianity, then it in effect would become just another Christian sect.

[Elisha]

Makes what "no longer Christianity"? Do you think any syncretist movement can conceivably assimilate the "fundamental truths" of ALL religions at the same time? Syncretism is about reinterpretation, and doesn't claim to pander to purists.

Really dear, you're in no position to judge.

Well, if Yiguandao were to assimilate, without exception, these "fundamental truths" of Christianity, then it in effect would become just another Christian sect.

There's a difference between the moral teachings found in Christianity and Christianity.

You're entitled to your opinion that Christianity can be assimilated without "fundamental truths"

Edited by Elisha, 02 May 2006 - 05:08 AM.

[DaMo]

Really dear, you're in no position to judge.

And you are, I suppose?

Given how rigidly you define syncretism, and how you go on about your "fundamental truths or nothing" principle, I'm hardly the judgemental one here.

[lanjingling]

If you knew the tenets of the christian faith (which is the same regardless of denominations, it is totally incapable of merging with another religion) You don't have to agree with me but I think there should be some objectivity when one is referring to a Christian 'standard'. For example, the fundamental truths of christianity, here (note the first 5 points. Denominations differ regarding the points after. But we all agree to these 5 points. That's the difference between us and other 'religions' like the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses' which also feature Jesus Christ.

IMO, christianity syncretism into chinese religion is impossible because the extent of "re-interpretation" (the fundamental truths that make the faith) makes it no longer christianity.

Point 5 : "We believe that salvation is the gift of God to man.This gift is effected by grace through faith in Jesus Christ & it produces works pleasing to God."
Don't the Catholics rely more on the individual acts than on the "grace through faith" for their salvation ?

Point 1 :"We believe in one God , who exists in 3 Persons - the Father, Son & Holy Spirit "
The western (Catholics & Protestants) & eatern Christians (Orthodox) differs on the meaning of "exists in 3 Persons" & on the relations between these 3 Persons.

Point 2 "We believe that the Bible is God's Word.(...)It is our perfect guide in all matters of life."
No difference with the Jews ( who are NOT Christians) ,only the Christians have added the Gospels to the Bible. & the muslims added the Quran to the Bible , & for the Catholics , the Pope's words can be as important as the Bible.

Point 3 "We believe that Jesus Christ is both God & Man. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit (...)"
Same as point 1.

[Elisha]

Point 5 : "We believe that salvation is the gift of God to man.This gift is effected by grace through faith in Jesus Christ & it produces works pleasing to God."
Don't the Catholics rely more on the individual acts than on the "grace through faith" for their salvation ?

Point 1 :"We believe in one God , who exists in 3 Persons - the Father, Son & Holy Spirit "
The western (Catholics & Protestants) & eatern Christians (Orthodox) differs on the meaning of "exists in 3 Persons" & on the relations between these 3 Persons.

Point 2 "We believe that the Bible is God's Word.(...)It is our perfect guide in all matters of life."
No difference with the Jews ( who are NOT Christians) ,only the Christians have added the Gospels to the Bible. & the muslims added the Quran to the Bible , & for the Catholics , the Pope's words can be as important as the Bible.

Point 3 "We believe that Jesus Christ is both God & Man. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit (...)"
Same as point 1.

Well, I know what people, even Christians say. That really doesn't matter to me. That's their opinion. What they say must line up with what the bible says. Or else, how does one navigate amongst so many opinions? And how does one then differentiate what is man's interpretation and what is the truth? As far as I'm concerned, the final authority is found in the bible.

The composition of the bible - the full 66 books is already settled in the Jerusalem council, which I believe was 'inspired'. (just leave it as that ) If there's any addition - well, that's man's choice not God's will.

[lanjingling]

Well, I know what people, even Christians say. That really doesn't matter to me. That's their opinion. What they say must line up with what the bible says. Or else, how does one navigate amongst so many opinions? And how does one then differentiate what is man's interpretation and what is the truth?

I agree that this can be a real problem , & IMHO the fact that many Christians want to be absolutely sure ofwhat the "real truth" is make them very "rigid" , intellectually speaking.(I won't say "intolerant" , because someone could complain again )

The composition of the bible - the full 66 books is already settled in the Jerusalem council, which I believe was 'inspired'. (just leave it as that ) If there's any addition - well, that's man's choice not God's will.

Do you agree that , for the Catholics , the Pope's words are also "inspired" ?
To make my position clear , i think that everyone is free to believe what he/she wants (or can), but this belief can not be discussed from a logical point of view. Faith has nothing to do with science , then trying to define what a faith precisely is will lead to endlesses discussions (& as an non-believer who try to stand on logics, i'm affraid i can be sometime tactless regarding the religions that tries to be a bit too dogmatic )