165 replies to this topic

[Liang Jieming]

Well since we're on Buddhism, Vesak day is coming up real soon. It's the longest continuously celebrated birthday in the world isn't it?

[Elisha]

If I remember correctly, Vesak Day is actually quite a recent "creation" of the international Buddhist association as the day for commemorating the (1) birth, (2) enlightenment and (3) nirvana of Sakyamuni. Obviously, the (1) birth, (2) enlightenment and (3) nirvana of Sakyamuni has long been a cause of celebration/commemoration-- but I don't think they actually fell on the same day or on 15th day (full moon) of the 4th month in the current lunar (Buddhist/Chinese) calendar.

In buddhism, what exactly is "enlightenment"? What is achieving "nirvana"?

And are these the aims of practising buddhists? Is the worship of buddha involved?

Well.. kinda want to know what the "end point" is.

Similarly, is there an end-point (conclusion) to daoism. Or is it meant to be open-ended? In which case, what does it ultimately mean?

Hmm... I guess what I'm trying to figure out is what it means in practice. What people can derive from it to be used in their daily lives. (I don't think it's meant to be an intellectual exercise?)

Accessibility - only to people who have an avid interest in it or open to a layperson as well (a busy professional, a home-maker)?

[Liang Jieming]

Ok, again, if there are any buddhists here, please step in and correct me if I'm wrong. This is just what I know about buddhism.

Strictly speakihng, Buddha is not a god and he is therefore not worshipped but is instead revered as a teacher/guide.

Achieving enlightenment is when a person does so much good in his/her life (accumulated in terms of good karma or bad karma), the he/she finally breaks out of the viscious circle of life. Unfortunately, it takes a long time to accumulate enough good karma for enlightenment so you may take successive rebirths as your mortal remains (matter) are recycled back when you die, into the world and you are reborn into either a higher or lower state depending on your karma balancesheet. (Ie. the more good deeds you do, the more you gain good karma until you achieve buddha-hood or nirvana.)

That's the basic essence of Buddhism as I understand it.

[Elisha]

Unfortunately, it takes a long time to accumulate enough good karma for enlightenment so you may take successive rebirths as your mortal remains (matter) are recycled back when you die, into the world and you are reborn into either a higher or lower state depending on your karma balancesheet. (Ie. the more good deeds you do, the more you gain good karma until you achieve buddha-hood or nirvana.)

Hmm.. so if I understand correctly, one can do all the good in this life and not achieve nirvana because there's not enough good karma from the previous life. Practically, one is never quite sure whether he has gathered enough good karma because it's not dependent on this life only. So the bottomline is to do one's best and hope for the best?

[Liang Jieming]

Yup!

Edited by Liang Jieming, 09 May 2006 - 11:13 AM.

[Elisha]

In response to the agreement of "So the bottomline is to do one's best and hope for the best?"

(in Singlish) Wah, like that very xiong1 leh... (sorry, been speaking in Singlish to a friend...)

translation in English:

That's pretty tough!

Reminds me of a song.. "I did my best, but I guess my best wasn't good enough 'cos here we are right where we were before."

Edited by Elisha, 09 May 2006 - 11:49 AM.

[Liang Jieming]

Hehehe but you've got to admit, it's a pretty neat closed loop system to get people to behave.

[lanjingling]

P.S. This year is the year 2550 in the Buddhist (lunar) Calendar.

Wow, China is not only the first in economics growth, but also in Buddhist calendar; in Thailand, it's only 2449 this year.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Ok, again, if there are any buddhists here, please step in and correct me if I'm wrong. This is just what I know about buddhism.

Strictly speakihng, Buddha is not a god and he is therefore not worshipped but is instead revered as a teacher/guide.

Achieving enlightenment is when a person does so much good in his/her life (accumulated in terms of good karma or bad karma), the he/she finally breaks out of the viscious circle of life. Unfortunately, it takes a long time to accumulate enough good karma for enlightenment so you may take successive rebirths as your mortal remains (matter) are recycled back when you die, into the world and you are reborn into either a higher or lower state depending on your karma balancesheet. (Ie. the more good deeds you do, the more you gain good karma until you achieve buddha-hood or nirvana.)

That's the basic essence of Buddhism as I understand it.

thats a generalization, the fact is, many believers, especially the Pure Land and Tantra sects, do worship Buddha.
Enlightenment has nothing to do with Karma, it is done through mindfulness and meditation. You can have all the good karmas in your life, and you'll still get no where, good karma is only the initial step that removes all obstacles from your cultivation. Of course this isn't what every Buddhists believe. Different sects of Buddhism can be as different from each othe ras Christianity is to Islam. To a Pure Land believer, all you have to do is chant Amitaba's name and you will go to the pure land, that was the highest goal.

to a Chan or Hinayana practitioner, it is completely different.

[Elisha]

thats a generalization, the fact is, many believers, especially the Pure Land and Tantra sects, do worship Buddha.

Why do they worship Buddha?

Enlightenment has nothing to do with Karma, it is done through mindfulness and meditation. You can have all the good karmas in your life, and you'll still get no where, good karma is only the initial step that removes all obstacles from your cultivation.

So after removing all obstacles (by accumulating good karma), what do they have to do? When they don't have time to do it what happens? How do you know when there's enough good karma?

I guess, back to my original question, what's the end-point?

In "archaeological" terms, Sakyamuni's (1)"birth" refers to the day he was born, (2) "enlightenment" refers to the day he came out of his 3 years' of cave meditation, and (3) "nirvana" refers to the day he died.

Of course this isn't what every Buddhists believe. Different sects of Buddhism can be as different from each othe ras Christianity is to Islam. To a Pure Land believer, all you have to do is chant Amitaba's name and you will go to the pure land, that was the highest goal.

to a Chan or Hinayana practitioner, it is completely different.

So for some the goal is "enlightenment" and for some is entering the "pure land"? (btw, this term "enlightenment" is a different definition from what Wang Yun provided above which he said it's in the context of "archaelogical" terms. I take it to mean from the sect that believes so far, Sakyamuni (Buddha) is the only one who has achieved enlightenment?)

And out of curiosity, why chant Amitaba's name? And how is it by chanting one can reach the pure land? (I guess I'm looking at doctrine)

Are there any unifying elements in buddhist doctrine despite the different sects? (Kinda like the Christians "fundamental truths")

P.S. totally OT, but I read somewhere that the historical Jesus was born 2 BCE but 1 CE (actually 3 A.D.) was kept where it was for convenience (as 1st year Common Era)-- is that right?

Hmm..have not heard about the above.

Purely my view, I wonder whether this had anything to do with the fact that at that time Herod sent forth a decree to put to death all male children under the age of 2 and Jesus was hidden in Egypt until the death of Herod. He was still a Child when Herod died (could be 3, hence 3 A.D? don't know, I don't think the exact age was mentioned in the bible) (the account in Matthew 1:12-23)

[lanjingling]

Strange, it was 2549 last year when I went to Thailand, so it should be 2550 this year except that I'm not sure when the new year starts-- but how did you lose the 100 years?

Anyway, there ARE different calculations for the buddhist calendar in different areas...

P.S. totally OT, but I read somewhere that the historical Jesus was born 2 BCE but 1 CE (actually 3 A.D.) was kept where it was for convenience (as 1st year Common Era)-- is that right?

Oops, my finger have slipped...i meant 2549.
The fact is Thailand is using 2 calendars, then on january 1st , we changed from 2005 to 2006, but also from 2548 to 2549. Then on the Buddhist change of year,(called Songkran, every year from 13 to 15 May), there is no change, because we're already in 2549...That's a bit confusing
For Jesus, there are a lot of debate amongst scholars on this subject.

[Elisha]

For Jesus, there are a lot of debate amongst scholars on this subject.

Yup, can tell it's written by scholars

A different perspective here. It's audio. If you want to have a taste of real authentic Christian doctrine. Yum. What does it means to be "in Christ"?

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

[quote]Why do they worship Buddha?[/quote]The same reason why any religion would worship gods.






[quote]So after removing all obstacles (by accumulating good karma), what do they have to do? When they don't have time to do it what happens? How do you know when there's enough good karma?

I guess, back to my original question, what's the end-point?[/quote]

They will keep on going in the cycle of rebirth until they do. You don't know when there is enough good karma, but unless you do something bad, usually, meditation isn't a problem. The "end point" is simply getting rid of your ego identity, its called Nibbana. Here different schools differ in their explanation of what Nibbana is, some of the Theravada would say its extinction and you would'nt be reborn again, the Chan would say its only getting rid of the self, everything in the world still exist and you still reborn as bodhisatvas to save others.


[quote]So for some the goal is "enlightenment" and for some is entering the "pure land"? (btw, this term "enlightenment" is a different definition from what Wang Yun provided above which he said it's in the context of "archaelogical" terms. I take it to mean from the sect that believes so far, Sakyamuni (Buddha) is the only one who has achieved enlightenment?)[/quote]Depends on the sect, but no Buddhism say Sakyamuni is the only enlightened Buddha, some Theravada saids there are five enlightened Buddhas so far, and only Siddartha belongs to this Kalpa. Others say there are a few dozen, then we got certain sects of Mahayana that claim there are countless Buddhas.

[quote]And out of curiosity, why chant Amitaba's name? And how is it by chanting one can reach the pure land? (I guess I'm looking at doctrine)[/quote]

Same logic on why you chant Jesus' name and you go to heaven. The difference is that Pure Land isn't actually the end, you cultivate there to become a Buddha.

[quote]Are there any unifying elements in buddhist doctrine despite the different sects? (Kinda like the Christians "fundamental truths")[/quote][/quote]

The four noble truth

[Elisha]

Hi Warhead, thanks for your answers to my questions in the previous posts.

Understand you read a lot of Eastern philosophy and all. Which are you most interested in?

Same logic on why you chant Jesus' name and you go to heaven.

Nope. That's an erronous perception of Christianity. I've provided the link before in one of the earlier post. But I'll quote it here for convenience since it's not too long. (nothing like studying it yourself than hearsay? )

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation (Romans 10:9-10)

"confess" does not equal chant. Neither does it mean a "confession" of sin. Confess - greek word, homologeo. (note, homo=same; as in homologeous, homosexual, etc.. logeo=word; it means "same word")

"salvation" means soteria. Of which, salvation in terms of souls is one of the meanings.

The same reason why any religion would worship gods.

I was hoping for a more specific answer in relation to buddha. So far, as I understand it, it's because he has achieved enlightenment.

In the OT, God is known by many names. These are a few of them.

The Lord (Yahweh/Jehovah)
The Lord is God (Jehovah-Elohim)
The Lord God Most High (Jehovah-Elyon)
The Almighty God (El-Shaddai)
The Lord will provide(Jehovah-Jireh)
The Lord is Healer (Jehovah-Repheka)
The Lord is our Righteousness (Jehovah-Tsidqenu)
The Lord of Hosts (Jehovah-Tsebaoth)
The Lord is Conqueror (Jehovah-Nissi)
The Lord is Peace (Jehovah-Shalom)
The Lord is There (Jehovah-Shmah)

The names point to why He is worshipped.

In NT, Jesus came to reveal relationship (and intimacy) Throughout the NT, He addressed God as "Father". The only time when He addressed God as "God" was on the cross when He took our place and was being judged for our sins; then He cried, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken me"

Later on, Paul writes about a spirit of sonship (some translations is write it as 'adoption') (Galatians 4:6)

In NT, God was not only God to be worshipped but loved. The worship stems from love. (which I believe is very different from other religions that's why I asked) The definition of love for a believer here (v10, touching)

It's all about relationship. I think that's why the scriptures are written so passionately compared to other religious text? A taster if you wish, (Romans 8, one of my fave chapters, builds to a climatic end) Romans 8:29-39. (if you don't have a bible, go to www.biblegateway.com - I personally use the New King James text)

Edited by Elisha, 10 May 2006 - 09:00 PM.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Understand you read a lot of Eastern philosophy and all. Which are you most interested in?

Zhuang Zi