29 replies to this topic

[TMPikachu]

in the US, which is often depicted as a "violent society", when two people fight, once one is down, the other has won and steps out of the fight.

I think it's best to just take fights as individual experiences.

My friends who practice submission wrestling try to end it with the other person giving up, but it can get nasty, it's a fight, maybe alcohol is involved.
And I've heard my black friend joke before "I'm a nigga, I have to stomp him if he's down!"
then there's that famous curb stomp scene in American History X.

as for face...
I get the feeling perceived cultural differences get overblown by both sides for the sake of being... in a weird way, understanding of differences. Everybody has face. Americans are a people very concerned about face. Look at High School, who's dating who, who's wearing what, nerds and jocks seen where? or at least the dramatizations in entertainment, heheh.

Maybe here we call it reputation, street cred, reliability, keepin' it real, whether a girl's nice or a slut, etc.

hmmm, perhaps Rappers are the best example of Face in America, heheh.


*there's this manual issued to US soldiers during WWII in China, one part of it was about Face
I liked how they described it : "It's simply a person's reputation." then goes on to say that Chinese may have different priorities than Americans, but same basic idea. Or was it Self respect, it was a word like that.
then they gave an example of a hypothetical John Johnson, who's been with the company for X decades. He's being outshined by younger employees that understand modern business better, but the company respect's mr. Johnson's need to save face, so they 'promote' him to another position. Or something like that. And that was a soldier's pocket guide to understanding 'face'.

Edited by TMPikachu, 27 November 2007 - 05:47 PM.

[polar_zen]

Let me add a little story to indicate the importance of understanding "face" in China:

A few years ago, I was teaching English at a small private college in Nanchang. After one class had concluded, several of the students wanted to talk with me about "human rights". I told them that it wasn't a good idea; it is after all, a sensitive subject in China. Unfortunately, just at that moment, when one student had written both "human rights" as well as (人权), its Chinese equivalent, on the blackboard, the school monitor, a particular nasty specimen of humanity, walked in (I was the only foreign teacher at the school, and he was always watching me, hoping I would "slip up" so he could report me to his superiors). When he saw the blackboard, he placed his hands behind his back and harrumphed, "Why are you talking about this?" I replied with some nonsense to the effect that I was informing the students that in western societies, people's thinking is too "confused and disordered" (luan 乱), while in China, people understand the importance of orderly thought and proper behavior, or some such thing.

Even though he knew I was lying, I knew that he knew I was lying, and he knew that I knew that he knew I was lying, it didn't matter. He was immensely pleased, and didn't report me for what was a serious breach of acceptable conduct at this (or any) school in China, especially for a foreigner....I had given him face.

Nice. Quick thinking .

[kaiselin]

Sorry I can't help myself I have to post this pic here....

[richardrli]

LOL kaiselin

[Lyn Krain]

As a Chinese for twenty years, it is the first time I know face is so complicated.

[General_Zhaoyun]

In chinese culture, "Face" simply means "personal pride and dignity". However, 'face' is to be given to a person from someone else. When you say "I give you face", it means "I don't let you to lose face" (I don't let you lose your dignity/pride).

[LongMa]

Also explains why asians don't have a "lawsuit" culture. Resorting to lawsuits is going all the way and by airing greviences out in the open you're not giving the other party face so it usually escalates into a no-holds bar free-for-all fight. Simply put, without "face" to interceed once the limit is exceeded, we have no social norms in place to stop it from spiralling out of control.

This is also part of the reason why some arguments here on CHF can spiral out of control from a simple "harmless" jest.

The Western social norm is the rule of law which arbitrates these situations, most people don't see that as a bad thing (in the West).

This is especially good in a multiracial/multicultural society, as in America, where everyone does not share the same innate cultural values...we might not be able to come to an agreement based on our ideas of "fairness", "honor", "face" but the law is the universal mechanism.

The most angry and violent I have seen East Asians (speaking specifically of Chinese and Japanese) is when a man feels he lost face publicly...I have seen quite explosive reactions over things that are not common in America. Not that Americans don't get violent in public or very angry and loud but I think what we consider humiliating is different and how we handle it is different. I also think in general, Americans (on average) don't care as much abaout what the public things about their behavior or situation so the idea of "face" or "losing face" is more like "well if you don't like it you can kiss my @$$" this is a very American response.

I was once told by an uncle that if the person is not your family, does not pay your bills, takes your test, etc they don't matter. I don't think that is an unusual attitude for many Americans so the idea of "face" as it is in East Asia will not be as effective, we don't have the social pressure to force norms on people based on shame, because many Americans have a high "shame tolerance"

Edited by LongMa, 05 July 2008 - 01:28 PM.

[Taijitu]

Am I wrong in saying the non-abraisiveness of "face" seems to lose power during sour business negotiations or "street haggling"?

[shunyadragon]

FACE, what is it?
(Giving Face, Not Giving Face, Losing Face, Saving Face)

Saving face has two primary motivations. the first involves the collective nature of Chinese society, which saving face is not to disgrace or embarrass your family, community or nation. The second is not cause disharmony or chaos in your actions or behavior.

I believe that saving face is important in ones relations with all levels of society, but people respond to face in relation to different levels of society.

One aspect of Chinese society I found interesting when I lived there was that lying does not have as great a negative context in the Orient as it does in the west. Lying id commonly a part of saving face particularly in relation to those outside the family, community or nation, such as foreigners.

Edited by shunyadragon, 11 October 2008 - 04:52 PM.

[xtaaxtw]

The Chinese are fastidious about the face, anything is OK but do not hurt their face. The starving to death matter is small, being disloyal matter is big. Starving to death is on the material matter, being disloyal is in the face matter. Rather starves to death is not willing to lose face to be possible to see that the Chinese had pays great attention to the face.




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http://www.world-cul...h.org/index.asp

[WuXiaHer0]

"FACE"...
I've seen this before! It's from a book! The title is exactly the same. Am I right? I didn't get a chance to read it, the price is too high!!

[NanshanMike]

Tell you the truth the whole face thing is sometimes overwhelming here. Always need to walk on eggshells to insure no one feels slighted. I've ended up taking teaching jobs I didn't want because I wanted to save face with my boss. As someone said earlier that is predominantly an Asian thing. Americans do have zero pride at times, personally I think a certain amount of face is required to keep people civilized. But answer me this, where is face when one is publicy defacating, urinating or spitting in public. See these social norms are considered as tolerable yet in America you could get locked up for any of these three offenses. Different culture, different perception of what is acceptable. Pushing yourself in front of other people in line would be losing face for me yet a lot of Chinese think this is acceptable behavior. It is ironic how diametrically opposed our different our cultures can be. I never worried about face too much in the states, here I am always on my toes as to lot lose proverbial face.

China Shark Mike

[General_Zhaoyun]

Pushing yourself in front of other people in line would be losing face for me yet a lot of Chinese think this is acceptable behavior.

I hate to mention that from an overseas Chinese point of view, "jumping queue" is not considered to be a civilized behavior. Yet, in mainland China, jumping queue can be quite a common sight, only to be improved more recently. If you have gone to China 15 years ago, you will be shocked that many people do not queue up at all.

Actually, true authentic Chinese culture does not consider "jumping queue" to be polite. It's considered to be a rude behavior since you're not being considerate. It doesn't have any relation with "face" at all.

The Chinese conception of "Face" has more to do with "personal pride/dignity". When one 'loses face', it means one loses one's own pride/dignity. When you say you 'give face' to someone, it means you allow the person to have a personal dignity/pride, i.e. you protect his reputation/pride. By giving face to someone, it means you do not humiliate him in front of others. It's a way of showing consideration for others.

[NanshanMike]

I hate to mention that from an overseas Chinese point of view, "jumping queue" is not considered to be a civilized behavior. Yet, in mainland China, jumping queue can be quite a common sight, only to be improved more recently. If you have gone to China 15 years ago, you will be shocked that many people do not queue up at all.

Actually, true authentic Chinese culture does not consider "jumping queue" to be polite. It's considered to be a rude behavior since you're not being considerate. It doesn't have any relation with "face" at all.

The Chinese conception of "Face" has more to do with "personal pride/dignity". When one 'loses face', it means one loses one's own pride/dignity. When you say you 'give face' to someone, it means you allow the person to have a personal dignity/pride, i.e. you protect his reputation/pride. By giving face to someone, it means you do not humiliate him in front of others. It's a way of showing consideration for others.

Like I said it is all about perceptions and by someone pushing in front of me in line is showing disrespect to other people, {hence taking my face}. I was in Shanghai fifteen years ago I know about China past and present. If it is tolerated it is accepted behavior. But all my Chinese friends, ex girlfriends, students all agree with you that's it's rude yet feel too embarassed to say anything and lose face even though they felt it was wrong. So it is a pride/humiliation thing. Scematics are clever yet there are holes in your theory. Have you ever really lived in mainland China or have just visited. As a westerner I can clearly see face in both cultures and do not have a miopic view of reality. There truly is not one clearly defined definition of the meaning of face. I've had numerous discussions with fellow teachers {Chinese and westerners} about this and the parameters are quite varied on this subject. Because you disagree doesn't negate legitimate my words. There are different degrees of face. Mainland China and Singapore/Taiwan are quantum leaps apart. That is like comparing Hong Kong to Shenzhen, no comparison. Guangzhou is much more civilized than Shenzhen. People don't push through the train doors before the other people exit the cars in Guangzhou. Perceptions are realities whether you like them or not.

China Shark Mike

[General_Zhaoyun]

Like I said it is all about perceptions and by someone pushing in front of me in line is showing disrespect to other people, {hence taking my face}. I was in Shanghai fifteen years ago I know about China past and present. If it is tolerated it is accepted behavior. But all my Chinese friends, ex girlfriends, students all agree with you that's it's rude yet feel too embarassed to say anything and lose face even though they felt it was wrong. So it is a pride/humiliation thing. Scematics are clever yet there are holes in your theory. Have you ever really lived in mainland China or have just visited. As a westerner I can clearly see face in both cultures and do not have a miopic view of reality. There truly is not one clearly defined definition of the meaning of face. I've had numerous discussions with fellow teachers {Chinese and westerners} about this and the parameters are quite varied on this subject. Because you disagree doesn't negate legitimate my words. There are different degrees of face. Mainland China and Singapore/Taiwan are quantum leaps apart. That is like comparing Hong Kong to Shenzhen, no comparison. Guangzhou is much more civilized than Shenzhen. People don't push through the train doors before the other people exit the cars in Guangzhou. Perceptions are realities whether you like them or not.

China Shark Mike

I am a Taiwanese who was grown up in Singapore. I'm quite familiar with the Taiwanese and Singaporean culture. I've visited China since 1994 and had visited it regularly and experienced the lifestyle there. I have also studied in UK for 4 years. I believed I quite understand China's culture and cross-cultural differences between East and West.

The reason for the differences in behavior of Chinese in mainland China and those in Taiwan/Hongkong/Singapore is due to different degree of urbanization and economic development. In mainland China, the vast majority of people lived in the rural countryside (agra-society) and were not used/accustomed to the 'modern fast-pace'/ urban lifestyle of urban city. At present, 60% of China's population are still in the countryside. In fact, to many people living in the rural countryside, boarding the bus, queueing up to buy tickets and many activities associated with urbanization can be considered to be a 'new thing'. Many of these urban living habits/activities were not present in the rural region. Thus, when they encounter these things in the city, they simply use their habits in their home villages to react. In fact, they don't know that 'queuing up' is the right thing to do in the city.

When you're in Shenzhen or many coastal cities, you will realize that there were many migrant workers from the countryside or other provinces, who had swarmed to the urban centers to work. They basically carried their rural habits such as spitting, urinate in public, jumping the queue etc.

Of course, speaking in front of them can be case of humiliation/face, but I believe the Chinese government is also quite concerned about the face of Chinese in front of westerners. They don't want the Chinese to lose face by presenting such an ugly sight (such as spitting, jumping the queue, urinating in public, speaking loudly etc). Thus, you will see the Chinese government doing some work on education and promoting more 'civilized' behavior. At least, that's what I've observed in some cities in Beijing, Shanghai, Xiamen over the past 5 years.