12 replies to this topic

[Xyston]

I've been looking for info on chinese armies from the Former Han period, but it's surprisingly hard to find good books or internet sites. Most pretty much skips the Han period and goes straight from Warring States to the Three Kingdom or even the Tang for some reason. So I was wondering if any of you guys could give me some info on how the former Han armies were equiped and fougth; and I'm only talking about the expeditionary armies in the northwest, but also the ones that campaigned in the south and in Korea. Thank you very much for your help.

[Wujiang]

Try the search function.
I think you will find a number of threads relating to this topic

[Kenneth]

Here's some threads;
Han dynasty cavalry & infantry
http://s8.invisionfr...hp?showtopic=42

Focusing on Han era dao (single edged swords) and ring hilted knives;
http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=7440

Stastics and reasonable evidence on the performance of hard hitting Chinese crossbows of around two thousand years ago & their bronze mechanisms (a decisive Chinese weapon); see page 2 for most relevant details.
http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=4470

Focusing on the Han army combinations of weapons and the excavated evidence (halberds, spears, swords, bows, crossbows etc.)
(Probably most releant to your question)
http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=7672

Han era armour; some comments and debate.
http://www.chinahist...showtopic=11406

[General_Zhaoyun]

I've been looking for info on chinese armies from the Former Han period, but it's surprisingly hard to find good books or internet sites. Most pretty much skips the Han period and goes straight from Warring States to the Three Kingdom or even the Tang for some reason. So I was wondering if any of you guys could give me some info on how the former Han armies were equiped and fougth; and I'm only talking about the expeditionary armies in the northwest, but also the ones that campaigned in the south and in Korea. Thank you very much for your help.

Can you explain what do you mean by "former" han armies? The han dynasty was divided into western han and eastern han period.. there is no such thing as "former han".

[Xyston]

Can you explain what do you mean by "former" han armies? The han dynasty was divided into western han and eastern han period.. there is no such thing as "former han".

In some of the books I've read, for instance The Cambridge History of China, they call it Former and Later Han instead of Western and Eastern, for some reason.

[Kenneth]

This is true, various books use the term.
I prefer East & West Han, East & West Zhou since it reflects the movement of the capitals and historical events rather than just a position in time.
Chinese say 'Shi Han & Dong Han' so they use the terms 'East' & 'West' as standard.

[snowybeagle]

Actually, while there is only Former Han (前汉) in Chinese history, which refers to Western Han (西汉, 202 BC to AD 8), there are 2 Later Hans (后汉), which refer respectively to Eastern Han (东汉, AD 25 - AD 220), or to Later Han (后汉, AD 947-950) of the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms (五代十国) era proceeding the fall of the Tang Dynasty (唐朝).

To avoid confusion and maintain consistency, I'd use Western Han rather than Former Han, since its successor after the usurper's reign would be better referred to as Eastern Han.

Another reason would be as mentioned by Kenneth, the movement of the capital eastwards from ChangAn to LuoYang.

[Teutates]

I'm a Belgian, and at the time of the Han dynasty, Belgium already existed as a Belgian Confederation that was one of the Gauls: the "Belgae" as it was said in our ancient language. Our territory was between the Rhine and the Seine rivers, until the Swiss Alps, and (from the 3rd century BC) we had settled the Southeast of nowadays England. Also, the largest parts of nowadays Brittany was under our protectorate.

Like my ancestors, I'm very proud of my culture and my country, and I'm also curious about overseas. People of the Gauls, including Belgian Gaul, were great travelers (its true that in fact we often travelled for far away military campaigns or mercenaries, but not always), adventurers, and xenophiles. Xenophile means that we protect our culture, but we respect and welcome foreigners: it was even written in our laws.
Anyway, among my interests, I like to study about ancient times, and I try to discover and explore how was the world at the time of Ancient Belgium: the world like I would see it if I was born Belgian contemporary to the Han empire and other people of the last three centuries BC.
Maybe can we discuss about it and exchange our knowledges, like if we were people of those ancient times meeting during a long journey.

Another of my hobbies is military (being myself military and from a family with a military tradition).
Then, going back to these ancient times, imagine that I'm a Belgian warrior who travels and meets Han and other people. I'm around 180 cm tall, with a clear skin and an athletic body. My hairs are short with piked rearward tufts, and they are so blond that they are close to look white (in fact, it is not a natural color). I also have a moustache. My clothes are colorful and look a few like the dress of the Scythians: with leather boots, a "braca" (trousers), a "sagon" (tunic), and a cloak. Celtic-like design of geometric complicate forms and mythical animals are embroidered in silver. In my neck, I have a golden torques with refined figures. I'm looking very healthy and clean (Gauls were obsessed by hygiene). You can also see that I have some blue tattoos. For weaponry and protection, I wear a chains coat under a colorful light armor (similar to the linen armor of the Greek hoplites) metal ornament, cnemids to protect my legs (also similar to the Greek hoplites), a long iron sword attached to a belt maid of chains with refined design, an oval shield (similar to the one used by the Roman cavalry that copied it from the Gauls) with geometric and animal design similar to those embroidered on my dress, three javelines and my spear. The scabbard of sword, and all the equipment are decorated with complicated figures and curves. My helmet (similar to the helmet of the 1st century AD Roman legionnary that copied it) is in iron with bronze ornament and colorful horsehairs, but I attach it to my horse most of the time, to let my hairs free. The horse is strong, but tall like a Mediterranean horse (it's a Belgian race of horse), with light brown hairs. Two other warriors from the same cavalry unit follow me, with same dress and equipment, but less decorated: they are my "ambachts" (bodyguards) and companions. There are around 30 other cavalrymen with same dress. One of them has a wind instrument looking like a long tube ended by a head of dragon: it's a "carnyx". And, another one as a kind of vexilum with a wild boar insignia on the top. I also have four loyal and big wardogs walking on the side of my horse. This is how I could look like as a Belgian warrior at that time. I'm the son of a senator (we also had a senat in Ancien Belgium) who is also a druid and a cavalry general. I did my first battles in 110-107 BC, during the invasion of 300,000 Cimbre warriors that came from the Jutland to try to invade the Gauls but that we repulsed on the Belgian borders. Then, to increase my military experience, I served some years as a mercenary, with my troop, at the service of Ptolemaic throne of Egypt, before to come back home. Then, I met a Chinese of the Han Empire, of the reign of Wu-ti.

Maybe can you tell me more about the Han army?
Can you tell me about the organization and the manpower of the Han cavalry of Han Wudi? I heard sometimes 50,000, sometimes 100,000 cavalrymen. But, some people say 450,000 cavalrymen, or something like that: it's surely a largely exagerated number.
And, how where organized in units the swordsmen, spearmen, and crossbowmen of the infantry? Where they regrouped in a system looking like the Roman manipule? What was the organization of a regiment?

[Yun]

From http://micchan.ebok....006/92272.shtml
(quoted from the book Jin'ge Tiema: Bingzhi yu Junshi by Guo Jian, published 2003)

参战时由朝廷任命的统帅进行实行战时编制，委派若干“将军”分领几个作战集群，集群下将各地征发的士兵按其地域集中编制为某一战斗部队，号为“部”，由朝廷委派的“校尉”指挥；部下分为若干个（一般也应是5进位制）“曲”，约1000人，由“军侯”指挥；曲以下按平时基本编制，整编为伍（有伍长）、什（有什长）、队（50人或100人，有队率）、屯（500人，有屯长）。另外每一级军官都可支配约占编制10%的另编人员为随从亲兵，担任警卫、通讯等特别战地勤务。

Summary and Translation:
The Qin and Han military system had Generals (jiangjun) commanding armies, each divided into bu (divisions) commanded by a Lieutenant-General (xiaowei). Each bu was divided into several (usually in multiples of five) qu (regiments) of about 1,000 men each, commanded by Colonels (junhou). The qu were subdivided into tun (battalions) of 500 men under Majors (tunzhang), dui (companies or platoons) of 50 or 100 men under Captains (duishuai), shi (sections) of 10 men under Sergeants (shizhang), and wu (squads) of five men under Corporals (wuzhang).

Each commanding officer of a larger unit was also entitled to a personal staff numbering 10% of the size of his unit (e.g. 50 men for a Major), serving as bodyguards or runners and other such support roles.

[Teutates]

Thank you for your information.

Then, it means that a "bu" had not fixed organization and manpower if the number of regiment was a multiple of 5 (but not necessarily 10 regiments)?
What was the battle order of the division? Was it mixing infantry and cavalry? Was it including engineers, logistic, siege machines?
Crossbowmen, spearmen and swordsmen were regrouped in the same regiment? or were formed in separated regiments?

Sorry, I have so many questions...

[Yun]

Can you tell me about the organization and the manpower of the Han cavalry of Han Wudi? I heard sometimes 50,000, sometimes 100,000 cavalrymen. But, some people say 450,000 cavalrymen, or something like that: it's surely a largely exagerated number.

The number of soldiers committed in Han Wudi's major offensive against the Xiongnu in 126 BC was over 100,000, according to records. In another major offensive in 119 BC, there were 100,000 cavalry (with two generals commanding 50,000 each) as well as a supply train escorted by several hundreds of thousands of infantry.

Then, it means that a "bu" had not fixed organization and manpower if the number of regiment was a multiple of 5 (but not necessarily 10 regiments)?

Yes, it could be five regiments, or ten, or fifteen, and so on. But the minimum manpower would be around 5,000 men.

What was the battle order of the division? Was it mixing infantry and cavalry? Was it including engineers, logistic, siege machines? Crossbowmen, spearmen and swordsmen were regrouped in the same regiment? or were formed in separated regiments?

Infantry units would include a mix of swordsmen, halberdiers, and crossbowmen. However, there were also some specialized crossbow units, for example in the Imperial Guards garrisoning the capital. There were specialized divisions of cavalry, as seen for example in the 50,000-strong cavalry units deployed in the 119 BC campaign.

Supply train, siege engines, and engineers/sappers would generally be support units following behind the main army.

[Teutates]

These are approximative manpower involved in major campaigns,...maybe including mobilized militia (?!) for the infantry.
But, are they any records to show the permanent battle order?!
For example, at the beginning of the Imperial Regime in Rome, the Augustinian army was turning around 28 legions (plus auxiliary units and a navy, of course). What about the Han? I think that the administration was also well developed in China, and there are probably many records.

I see,...thank you for your information. Very interesting. You said that a regiment of 1,000 men was made of two 500-strong battalions. If the infantry units were mixing spearmen, swordmen, and crossbowmen, were they formed in companies and mixed inside the battalions? or were they regrouped in battalions?
Can we compare the spearmen, swordmen, and crossbowmen to the Roman manipules?

You also said that the imperial guard had full regiments of crossbowmen. Was the organization of the guard completely different than in the rest of the army?

[General_Zhaoyun]

For han weapons and strategies, refer to
http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=1192

For han military campaign, refer to
http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=3082