41 replies to this topic

[MC420]

Do you actually read what you post, you act as if Vietnam's actions were altruistic, when in reality they were only for the purpose of improving its own strategic position in their region, and there's nothing wrong with that, all nations support others irrelevant of their history or actions because they want to use it for strategic purposes.

The only reason Vietnam hasn't done it more often is because it isn't a major power and doesn't have the same power as major countries.

Your assertion is correct. Major Southeast Asian powers in the past were the Champ Kingdom (from 1st - 12th century), the Khmer Kingdom (from 6th-13th century), and perhaps even the Nanzhao Kingdom (from 8th-13th century); Vietnam has always been relatively small country which seceded from China in 938AD and she's remained struggling ever since (from both internal civil conflicts & external threats from other major powers of the world such as the Mongolian, the Ming & the Ching dynasty, Japan, France, the US). Vietnam will not be a major power within any foreseeable future but her role would not be minor in the region either .... as someone significant suggested "just let the little dragon sleeps need not to wake her up!"

[DaMo]

when in reality they were only for the purpose of improving its own strategic position in their region, and there's nothing wrong with that,

Yes, there is.

Vietnam has always been relatively small country which seceded from China in 938AD and she's remained struggling ever since (from both internal civil conflicts & external threats from other major powers of the world such as the Mongolian, the Ming & the Ching dynasty, Japan, France, the US).

It's not as bad as you can make it look. China had just as much trouble with all of the above (except the Ming, of course). And historical Vietnam did significantly expand throughout.

[DaiCoViet]

Your assertion is correct. Major Southeast Asian powers in the past were the Champ Kingdom (from 1st - 12th century), the Khmer Kingdom (from 6th-13th century), and perhaps even the Nanzhao Kingdom (from 8th-13th century); Vietnam has always been relatively small country which seceded from China in 938AD and she's remained struggling ever since (from both internal civil conflicts & external threats from other major powers of the world such as the Mongolian, the Ming & the Ching dynasty, Japan, France, the US). Vietnam will not be a major power within any foreseeable future but her role would not be minor in the region either .... as someone significant suggested "just let the little dragon sleeps need not to wake her up!"

You don't have a clue of what you're talking about. Vietnam did not secede from China, Vietnam won her independence from the brutality of Chinese occupation and has fought numerous heroic wars to maintain such independence. Not only was Vietnam able to fend of the northern giant but throughout the ages it has also managed to expand and increase its pretige throughout eastern Asia. This "struggling" Vietnamese power was able to invade Song China and went all the way to Nanning. On another occasion, Vietnam went across the border deep into Chinese territory to pursue ethnic rebels and the Song emperor could not do anything but shut up and watch. Vietnam's military might and economic prestige reached its zenith in the 15th and 16th century when tributes poured from all over Southeast Asia, from Lan Xang to Angkor to Champa and all the way to the Malay Sultanates as further south as Java. Read some more history before uttering those kind of c**p, son.

The northern dragon is not sleeping. Rather, it is awake and is behaving very badly towards its smaller neighbours.

[DaiCoViet]

Do you actually read what you post, you act as if Vietnam's actions were altruistic, when in reality they were only for the purpose of improving its own strategic position in their region, and there's nothing wrong with that, all nations support others irrelevant of their history or actions because they want to use it for strategic purposes.

The only reason Vietnam hasn't done it more often is because it isn't a major power and doesn't have the same power as major countries.

Vietnam would not have invaded Cambodia had thousands of Vietnamese civilians were not massacred by the Khmer Rouge. Vietnam saved its own people as well as the dear lives of millions of Khmers.

China supplied weapons and training to the Khmer Rouge, thus was indirectly involved in sending millions of Khmers to their horrible death. Not only that, it attempted to keep this genocidal regime alive by invading a country that attempted to end this genocidal regime as an act of self-defense. Tragic.

[MC420]

You don't have a clue of what you're talking about. Vietnam did not secede from China, Vietnam won her independence from the brutality of Chinese occupation and has fought numerous heroic wars to maintain such independence. Not only was Vietnam able to fend of the northern giant but throughout the ages it has also managed to expand and increase its pretige throughout eastern Asia. This "struggling" Vietnamese power was able to invade Song China and went all the way to Nanning. On another occasion, Vietnam went across the border deep into Chinese territory to pursue ethnic rebels and the Song emperor could not do anything but shut up and watch.

According to history, Vietnam was an integral part of China from 43AD - 939AD (I just leave out from the year 111BC due to the fact that Vietnam region was somewhat autonomous until Ma Yuan's time). You use the term "brutal Chinese occupation" <-- it's merely subjective and nationalistic viewpoint at best to assert
your opinion. Should China wasn't weaken during the Fragmentation Period, would Vietnam able to gain her independence as you put it? As history goes on, Taiwan is trying to achieve similiar goal now; whereas Taiwan is seceding from China or declaring her independence, it's just different point of view.

Oh, you mentioned Dai-Viet took that preemptive against the southern Song which led by Marshall Li Jiangji during 11th century? Does the name Nung Zhicao ring a bell? The later Nung leader was able to amash better result against a weakening foe though even though the Vietnamese might not think or treat the minority of the Nung ethnic group as equal!

Vietnam's military might and economic prestige reached its zenith in the 15th and 16th century when tributes poured from all over Southeast Asia, from Lan Xang to Angkor to Champa and all the way to the Malay Sultanates as further south as Java.

Would you think Vietnamese imployed similiar value and tactics like the Chinese here by impose their will upn other people? How you think the Vietnamese conduct themselves different than the Chinese here (by demanding tributes and such?)

Read some more history before uttering those kind of c**p, son.

The northern dragon is not sleeping. Rather, it is awake and is behaving very badly towards its smaller neighbours.

I have to give you a serious warning here! No member would allow to call anyone any name in a degratory manner. Pls treat everyone with respect while engaging in debate. You could always assert you contention with objective facts and data. Nationalistic viewpoints are not welcome either.

[xng]

Vietnam's military might and economic prestige reached its zenith in the 15th and 16th century when tributes poured from all over Southeast Asia, from Lan Xang to Angkor to Champa and all the way to the Malay Sultanates as further south as Java. Read some more history before uttering those kind of c**p, son.

I have a pretty good knowledge of vietnamese history from the Qin dynasty to the Ming dynasty.
During the 15th and 16th century, China was under the Ming dynasty and was the most powerful country in Asia. Tributes were pouring into China via the seven voyages of Admiral Ching Ho.

The malay sultanate in Malacca paid tribute to China for protection and not vietnam. Similarly, why would Java/majapahit empire pay any tribute to vietnam ?

The only countries that Vietnam affected was its neigbours Champa, Cambodia and Lan xang which it gobbled some territories later.

Edited by xng, 04 October 2006 - 10:12 AM.

[Hoa Phau]

None other than the best country in the world, the mighty United States of America!!!!!!!!!!


http://www.omnicente...tors.htm#polpot

America recognize democratic kampuchea, but they didnt support pol pot. do you remeber the Mayagüez incident?

[Sansone]

In the past it may be "right" that the strong ruled the weak, and that hundred of nations assimilated into one as a disregard for coexistence and humility, yet even in those trial times, the universal truth exists and have existed.

Lessons in peace and war can be brutal to which the prices paid are all in vain if we've learnt nothing, while our heads are busy buried chasing the conditional victories and self gratification.

Time and time again bloodshed begets bloodshed, and every single "mightiest" have succumbed to destruction. No glory, nor pride of such however great can deny the terrible costs. 100,000 men alive has that much more potential to better the wold than 100,000 dead. Lives are not numbers, yet from those casualty numbers we must see ourselves.

In the long run, war is certainly not a safeguard for the stability of any authority, including the Mongol legacy that made-humbled even the Great Empire Under-Heaven, only to be defeated by smaller countries.

Personally, I do not want to see my children generations suffer through violence and destruction. Socialism, Marxism, capitalism, etc... wouldn't it be a shame if we die for these IDEAS and that our later generations die for our possible IDEAS?

Edited by Sansone, 14 August 2010 - 08:33 PM.

[lucidavid]

Several months ago, I read Brother Enemy - an account of the Diplomatic Events leading up to the Sino-Vietnamese War.
http://www.amazon.co...s=Brother Enemy

Some takeaways from the book,

1)The US supporting China because they were against the Soviet Union (and Vietnam turned to the Soviets) - not to mention that even after the Vietnamese ousted Pot Pol, his regime represented Cambodia into the 90s and eventually convinced other countries to sanction Vietnam.
2) Convinced ASEAN Nations (at the time - Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand) that Vietnam was threatening SE Asia and pledged to protect Thailand against Vietnamese aggression
3) While China wasn't able to keep Pol Pot's regime from being ousted, China was still providing financial support for Pol Pot in his guerrilla campaign during the decade long Vietnamese occupation of Cambodia - probably caused a bit of a headache to the Vietnamese military
4) Pot Pol's regime continued to represent Cambodia for awhile in the UN even though he was out of the picture.

Looking at the big picture, Deng Xiaopeng was able to manipulate the international system and convince the world that Vietnam was the aggressor here when Vietnam ousted a genocidal neighboring government (There were more 2 Khmer Rouge attacks on the Vietnamese providence such as An Giang & Chau Doc killing hundreds of Vietnamese civilians ON VIETNAM before Vietnam decided to act ) and was able to get away with invading, pillaging, and gaining a little bit of land from Vietnam without suffering from International repercussions - in fact, Vietnam suffered from a poor international image and ended up to relying aid from the Soviet Union.