43 replies to this topic

[Yun]

Why do you think the Gokturks were descended from the 'Asian Huns' (Xiongnu)? Is there evidence for this?

See this thread, on which Yihesan says that the origins of the Gokturks are very unclear: http://www.chinahist...p?showtopic=118

[hunnic_empire]

Why do you think the Gokturks were descended from the 'Asian Huns' (Xiongnu)? Is there evidence for this?

See this thread, on which Yihesan says that the origins of the Gokturks are very unclear: http://www.chinahist...p?showtopic=118

thank you for your replies

yes Gokturks are descendants from Huns,, First known Turkish nations were known as Huns,, Check out the Gold Man found in Kazakistan,,, inscriptions have been found in that tomb are belong to Turanid language and origin of Orkhun inscription... there are no doubt about Huns were ancestors of Turks and Turkish tribes

[Yihesan]

Ah boy you got many things to learn, most of what you wrote were wrong

Edited by Yihesan, 09 October 2005 - 11:17 AM.

[whan]

It is already old opinion by westerners that the Huns is from Turkish. Now with more studies on the mysterious Huns new hypothesis are provided and one of them is that they are Korean origin (could be Mongolian too as the two people, Korean and Mongolian considered to come from one blood in the ancient time).


** General Explanation(empression) about the Huns by western historians.

Physical feature :
Their skin color is dark.
They have two small black holes (instead of eyes) - this means they have black pupils-
and low nose with high cheekbones.
They have scratches on their cheeks and have rough face line.


** Evidences to support the hypothosis.

1. A Bronzekettle
A clay figure of horse riding that has a kettle behind a rider ; this is found in graves in a city (kyung-joo) in South part of Korea.
This kettle looks much like the bronze kettle which used by the Huns - among the world remains these kettles are only found in the south part of Korean land and in the places where the Huns traveled around.

On the edge of the both bronze kettles they have the carves of certain leaves and mushrooms ; these features are also found on the noblewoman's hat like thing in the Huns and a gold crown in one of the Korean kingdoms, Shilla(新羅 BC54-AD935)

2. Mongolian spot (grown-man's hand sized greeny spot on a newborn baby's buttock)
This spot is found in the group of descendants of the Huns who live in France and West Europe. And Korean and Mongolian new borne babys have the same sopt.

3. A Special and unique Bow and arrow
We both the Huns and Korean have the same picture of shooting an arrow.
In the picture that is found inside one church in North Italy, the Huns on the horse shoots arrows towards Roman horse-riding troops running behind the Huns
and also in the ancient tomb mural in Koguryo (高句麗 BC 37-AD668), one of the Korean ancient Kingdoms, the simillia one to the Huns' is found. - in this painting the horse riders twist their back towards animals running away behind the horse riders and shoot arrows to catch animals.
The most special things are the arrowheads. The arrowheads on the ancient tomb mural of Koguryo are axe shaped and the Huns also used the same shaped arrowheads according to the painting in the church in North Italy.


4. Both had a flat forehead and high head
The two people, the Ancient Korean and the Huns, had some kind of operation on their babys' forehead and the back of their head. In one of ancient Korean kingdoms, when they got a new baby they put a stone on the forehead of the newborne baby lying on her/his back so that the baby get a flat forehead and a flat back of his/her head and high head. In ancient Korean tomb, this kind of skull was found. The Huns aslo had flat forehead and a back of head and high head.


4. Unique flowerpot shaped Kettle.
These unique flowerpot shaped kettles are found in the places where the Huns traveled around - these kettle were used when they had ceremony to offer kind of meat to their spiritual symbol.
The same looking kettles also are found in the South part of Korean land.
The Huns put this kettle on the horse when they traveled around. And in the Korean land, was found the clay figure of horse-riding that has the same figure of the kettle on the horse.
Pluse all the clay figure of horse-riderings that are found in Korea have a flat forehead and high head,


5. Burial of the living with the dead.

In the ancient tomb of one of the Korean kingdoms, Ghaya (伽倻 ~BC - 562), the simillar kind of Burial of the living with the dead is found.
In the ancient tomb of Ghaya , the skulls of cows and horse on the wooden box are found ; the same perfomance did the Huns too.


6. Bear totemism and the tradition of red fabric on the trees or poles
The Huns worshiped bear (unlikely other momedic people) as a special symbol and as a spirirtual significance. In Korea, there is the birth myth of a nation (one of Korean kingdoms, dangun-choson) about bear.
The Huns tied red fabric on the trees or poles as a symbol to protect them from evil spirit. Same in Korea, we tied colourful fabric(mostly red, yellow, blue) on long poles and trees on the board of neighbourhoods not to let the evil spirit come into the neighbourhood ; it still remains in Korea as memorable traditions.

No matter what you agree to this Hope you enjoyed this words !!!

[Whan, I have moved your post to a more suitable thread. - Yun]

Edited by whan, 15 November 2005 - 02:27 AM.

[Yun]

Whan, you may also be interested in these threads:

http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=2981

http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=1605

http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=5030

Edited by Yun, 15 November 2005 - 02:07 AM.

[Yihesan]

It's very funny and un-logical for the Huns to be Korean. There are far too many evidences for their Turkicness (read the thread for God's sake).

[cassiusP]

It's very funny and un-logical for the Huns to be Korean. There are far too many evidences for their Turkicness (read the thread for God's sake).

Yes, it IS funny. Who's Korean back then?

Anyways, some Korean scholars say later Sillan rulling class(Kyoungju Kim family) definitely had links with Turkic people. some say they were XiongNu before they traveled long way to southern edge of Korean penninsula. evidence? I think everything excavated and dated back to 4~6th century Kyeongju, Korea shows very turkic, at least central asian charateristics. structure of the mountain-like tombs, shape of the gold crowns, earings and stuff for horses etc. and we can't see these characteristics anywhere in Korean peninsula and southern Manchuria before 4th century.

But I believe Silla had a sort of multi ethnic culture. There had been agricultural people who left dolmens all over during bronze age in Korean penninsula and Liaodong. Then probably some Qin's refugees and Old Joseon's refugees had arrived after the invasion of Han empire. Then relatively small amount of Nomads who were probably turkic.

Some linguists claim there had been increasing turkic influence in Korean language since 5th century.

Edited by cassiusP, 22 November 2005 - 10:55 PM.

[DearCoolZ]

Yes, it IS funny. Who's Korean back then?

Anyways, some Korean scholars say later Sillan rulling class(Kyoungju Kim family) definitely had links with Turkic people. some say they were XiongNu before they traveled long way to southern edge of Korean penninsula. evidence? I think everything excavated and dated back to 4~6th century Kyeongju, Korea shows very turkic, at least central asian charateristics. structure of the mountain-like tombs, shape of the gold crowns, earings and stuff for horses etc. and we can't see these characteristics anywhere in Korean peninsula and southern Manchuria before 4th century.

But I believe Silla had a sort of multi ethnic culture. There had been agricultural people who left dolmens all over during bronze age in Korean penninsula and Liaodong. Then probably some Qin's refugees and Old Joseon's refugees had arrived after the invasion of Han empire. Then relatively small amount of Nomads who were probably turkic.

Some linguists claim there had been increasing turkic influence in Korean language since 5th century.

source?if they were xiongnu or turks im sure the chinese historians would have recorded in any historical books and gold crowns,earings are all superficial stuff.

Edited by DearCoolZ, 23 November 2005 - 06:36 PM.

[Genghis_Khan]

Any Turks in here can verify ??

[Subotai]

Any Turks in here can verify ??

what can we verify?

I only know during Tang dinasty the GokTürks helped the Tang's in their campaign against Goguryeo, thats it.

source?if they were xiongnu or turks im sure the chinese historians would have recorded in any historical books and gold crowns,earings are all superficial stuff.

agree.

Edited by Subotai, 01 April 2006 - 09:41 AM.

[Yihesan]

Any Turks in here can verify ??

Verify what?

[Akskl]

Paul Nazaroff "Hunted Through Central Asia" Oxford University Press 1993
First published 1932

pp.286-288
...Over an immense area in Asia where the wandering Kazakhs ("Kirghiz" in the text - pre-revolutionary name used by Russians to distinguish Kazakhs from Cossacks - in Russian they both can be written as "Kazak" - A.) have scattered, their manner of life and their peculiar culture, developed through millenia of existence in the free open steppe, is the same, identical in space and identical, too, in time. These nomads were free to move about the plains at their own sweet will, as though upon an open sea, and there was nothing to prevent the Kazakhs of the Tian Shan from wandering away to steppes of Siberia, of the Ural or the Volga, except, of course, nowadays the Bolshevik Government.

This freedom and the mobility of the nomads of the steppe has evolved their own peculiar culture, character and manner of life, and has played a very important part in the history of Asia, which has not yet been properly appre­ciated by historians nor sufficiently studied. It has reacted profoundly on the fate of Russia, and even Western Europe has by no means escaped its influence. The burning sands of Egypt, the valleys of Mesopotamia and of Palestine (the myriad horsemen of Gog and Magog), and of India and the valleys of Russia and of Central Europe and even Chalons, the Catalaunian plains of France, Hellas, too, and Rome, all have seen the forbears of our Kazakh of to-day, though under various names - as Scythians or Massagetae, Huns, Polovtsi, Kipchaks, Kumans, Pechenegs, Alans, Tartars and so on. On every side their invasions have left their mark, not only destructive, for sometimes they have altered the course of historical development and affected the blood, language, character, manners and customs of the people with whom they have come into contact. Just as the Nor­mans in their day made use of their mobility upon the seas to spread their influence and culture throughout the West, so these nomads of the steppes of Asia have done the same in the East. The broad belt of grassy plains across the old continent, which has given rise to the peculiar type of nomad Turki and his inseparable comrade, the horse of the steppe, has had enormous influence on the destinies of the settled nations and of civilisation itself.
All distant invasions and the ` migration of peoples' have been possible owing to one single factor, hitherto ignored by historians, and that is the horse of the steppes. This animal is endowed with most valuable qualities of supporting fatigue and of endless endurance and the power of keeping up prolonged hard work on green food only, on mere grazing, of which other races of horse are quite incapable, being dependent on corn. These outstanding qualities of the steppe horse were fully appreciated and widely used by the great military leaders of Asia, conquerors, Jenghiz Khan, Tamerlane and the others [1], which explains the secret of their success.
The limits of attainment and conquest of the countless hordes of Asia depended not upon the powers of resistance of the subject peoples nor upon their armies, but were defined by the moist meadow grazing, by the cold damp of the north and by the tropical heat of the valleys of India, which were fatal to the horse of the Kazakhs...

1 See Ivanoff, ' On the Art of War of the Mongol-Tartars' (in Russian), a little known but extremely interesting work. Also two papers by me, " The Scythians Past and Present" ('Edinburgh Review,' July 1929, pp. 108-122), and " The Sons of Gog " (' English Review,' March 1930).

Edited by Akskl, 22 April 2006 - 07:06 PM.

[cavszabo]

Most of the Turkic words in Hungarian passed to this language from the Qïpchaqs (aka Kypchaks, Cumans) in the High Middle Ages and from the Ottomans during Ottoman rule between 16th and 17th centuries.

I just thought I'd correct this. Although I myself don't subscribe to the current official linguistic view, I have no choice but to refer you to the current scholars, as in this example:

In other words, according to the current studies, Turkic loanwords tend to come mainly from Old Bulgar and relate to such thing as agriculture and viticulture. There are probably some words from the Cumans who were absorbed into the rest of the Hungarians and some Pecheneg words, and there are a surprisingly small amount from the Ottoman Turks. We know the Ottomans also adopted some Hungarian words.

Hope that's clearer now!
Cheers,
Chris

[cavszabo]

It is already old opinion by westerners that the Huns is from Turkish. Now with more studies on the mysterious Huns new hypothesis are provided and one of them is that they are Korean origin (could be Mongolian too as the two people, Korean and Mongolian considered to come from one blood in the ancient time).


** General Explanation(empression) about the Huns by western historians.

Physical feature :
Their skin color is dark.
They have two small black holes (instead of eyes) - this means they have black pupils-
and low nose with high cheekbones.
They have scratches on their cheeks and have rough face line.


** Evidences to support the hypothosis.

1. A Bronzekettle
A clay figure of horse riding that has a kettle behind a rider ; this is found in graves in a city (kyung-joo) in South part of Korea.
This kettle looks much like the bronze kettle which used by the Huns - among the world remains these kettles are only found in the south part of Korean land and in the places where the Huns traveled around.

On the edge of the both bronze kettles they have the carves of certain leaves and mushrooms ; these features are also found on the noblewoman's hat like thing in the Huns and a gold crown in one of the Korean kingdoms, Shilla(新羅 BC54-AD935)

....
3. A Special and unique Bow and arrow
We both the Huns and Korean have the same picture of shooting an arrow.
In the picture that is found inside one church in North Italy, the Huns on the horse shoots arrows towards Roman horse-riding troops running behind the Huns
and also in the ancient tomb mural in Koguryo (高句麗 BC 37-AD668), one of the Korean ancient Kingdoms, the simillia one to the Huns' is found. - in this painting the horse riders twist their back towards animals running away behind the horse riders and shoot arrows to catch animals.
The most special things are the arrowheads. The arrowheads on the ancient tomb mural of Koguryo are axe shaped and the Huns also used the same shaped arrowheads according to the painting in the church in North Italy.


...


4. Unique flowerpot shaped Kettle.
These unique flowerpot shaped kettles are found in the places where the Huns traveled around - these kettle were used when they had ceremony to offer kind of meat to their spiritual symbol.
The same looking kettles also are found in the South part of Korean land.
The Huns put this kettle on the horse when they traveled around. And in the Korean land, was found the clay figure of horse-riding that has the same figure of the kettle on the horse.
Pluse all the clay figure of horse-riderings that are found in Korea have a flat forehead and high head,



6. Bear totemism and the tradition of red fabric on the trees or poles
The Huns worshiped bear (unlikely other momedic people) as a special symbol and as a spirirtual significance. In Korea, there is the birth myth of a nation (one of Korean kingdoms, dangun-choson) about bear.
The Huns tied red fabric on the trees or poles as a symbol to protect them from evil spirit. Same in Korea, we tied colourful fabric(mostly red, yellow, blue) on long poles and trees on the board of neighbourhoods not to let the evil spirit come into the neighbourhood ; it still remains in Korea as memorable traditions.

No matter what you agree to this Hope you enjoyed this words !!!

[Whan, I have moved your post to a more suitable thread. - Yun]

Hi!
This is a very interesting post! Could you please give some source? I have never heard of Hun "bear totemism" and can't seen any artwork depicting bears. I have also not seen any depictions of Huns carrying kettles (they normally call them cauldrons) on horses. But there are depictions of them cooking!

Thanks in advance,
Chris