162 replies to this topic

[lifezard]

Agreed. Not so long ago, the prevailing theory around the world was that peoples were displaced as new peoples moved in, example the British Isles. However, as inconclusive as modern evidence such as DNA studies show that folks are tend to mix more than expected, and assimilation is the rule
rather than the exception.
If you could select some pertinent articles I would be very greatful. I tried to do some research on this subject (specifically the Hakka) at the National Library and got quite a few books. Unforunately other interests took precedence and I didnt go into them. A glance through them showed works which took the old stories of Hakka migration during the Western Jin and later dynasties without question, to the extreme where at least one book argued that Hakka was almost entirely a 'non-Han' tribe that got sinicised. The latter was actually more scholarly in nature. All very interesting reads. I am still amazed at the cultural heritage of the Hakka. While the Hakka have much in common with other Chinese, the differences can be striking. Most fascinating.

Just to clarify the books I talked about were all in Chinese.

well, if you ask me, the Hakka people are no less Chinese than the surrounding peoples in the South, perhaps even a little more, at least the language is.. The word " ning qi zu zong tian, mo wang zu zong yan" still exemplifies the Hakka spirit

I will do my best to collect materials on Bai Yue .. although I am not sure how many of them is applicable to Hakka ..

[qrasy]

well, my question then to you is if you have killed off or deported most of the locals as HKy4eva assumes where are you gonna pick up the local words? From the graves? There must be a substantial number of locals left behind to justify using the local 'loan' words. Bear in mind many of these words are essential words we use everyday.

The loan words may be spread into other people. This is how you can get the Malay words in Xiamen dialects.
There might be just small number of Chinese, and the words got there as they lived together with the locals as majority... Then larger immigrant population were affected by the "more adapted" Chinese.
But this thing does not seem too much possible.

There seem to be a similar situation with Singapore Hokkien with malay loans like "mata", "suka", "pun" etc. In this case, the Malays are still here, need to ask though, where are the Bai Yue then?

The "Bai Yue" there might be almost entirely gone, but there are the She (originally Miao-Yao speaker). The contact between She and Hakka might be quite intense and it's possible as they both live in mountain. But one of the most important parts of the culture is reversed: She males marry into females...
There are even significant amount of She that can't speak She language but can speak Hakka.

well, if you ask me, the Hakka people are no less Chinese than the surrounding peoples in the South, perhaps even a little more, at least the language is.. The word " ning qi zu zong tian, mo wang zu zong yan" still exemplifies the Hakka spirit

At least, no less than Cantonese.

[lifezard]

hey, are we talking about initials or finals?

having 'c' as final and initial are 2 very different cases!!
For a moment I thought I might have stumbled across evidence that Qingdaonese is not Mandarin (based on what you said)... existence of a 'ru' sheng!

I will no longer continue this argument (still very unconvinced thou)

If you want evidences, so be it. But I m not a trained linguist, so I will have to search for them.

Cihai refers to some [c] and [c'] in Qingdaonese, without examples. Not even say that it exists in initial or final, but just by guessing that there's no stop endings in Qingdaonese, I think that it should be initial.
The source of the palatal sounds are usually from velar sound+i , so 京 and 今 could be.

Though the alveolar and velar sounds changes when they meet -i sound, many dialects in Shandongnese still distinguishes them as two sets (unlike Mandarin, only "j" "q" "x". Unfortunately this site seems down http://www.gzyywz.co...lh/17345757.htm （2）普通话的j q x，方言分两组，精≠经、清≠轻、修≠休。 Just by comparing with Cantonese, I can guess that one category is palatal (changed from k k' h), one is either alveolar or alveolo-palatal...)

And I observe that this un-aspirated stop [c] is the intermediate form of the change from classical 'ki' to Mandarin 'ji'. (the position is also between them)

The important thing is not what you think, but rather why? Any evidences (you can show me even the weakest ones)?
Or because someone else told you an alternative theory and you hold on it? Then go put forward some logical arguments...

[qrasy]

hey, are we talking about initials or finals?

For a moment I thought I might have stumbled across evidence that Qingdaonese is not Mandarin (based on what you said)... existence of a 'ru' sheng!

Mandarin does not necessarily lose all the Ru tones. The Jianghuai region Mandarin still have 1 Ru tone.

having 'c' as final and initial are 2 very different cases!!

Around China, the palatal initials are rare; the palatal endings are even more rare. And palatal endings are easier to lose (go to front) than palatal initials.
The starting observation that makes me think like that is when comparing Sino-Vietnamese with Hakka
C Cant vs Sino-V vs Hakka1 vs Hakka2
經 King vs Kinh vs Kin vs ???
明 Ming vs Minh vs Min vs Miang (?)

I will no longer continue this argument (still very unconvinced thou)

At this level, I would say that we can't be sure... I can pronounce palatal stop endings and I don't know would people more likely to interpret it as alveolar or velar... got to find some Cantonese around here to test

If you want evidences, so be it. But I m not a trained linguist, so I will have to search for them.

You can even give me mere "guesses" or "simple observations"...
Anyway, "no evidence" does not mean "not true"...

Edited by qrasy, 17 May 2006 - 04:10 PM.

[lifezard]

having lived in northern Jiangsu for a while, I really didn't regard the languages spoken by pple around me as mandarin, they are too different from Beijing, Shandong
or even Henan...

well at least they are more mandarin than shanghainese ..

Mandarin does not necessarily lose all the Ru tones. The Jianghuai region Mandarin still have 1 Ru tone.

Around China, the palatal initials are rare; the palatal endings are even more rare. And palatal endings are easier to lose (go to front) than palatal initials.
The starting observation that makes me think like that is when comparing Sino-Vietnamese with Hakka
C Cant vs Sino-V vs Hakka1 vs Hakka2
經 King vs Kinh vs Kin vs ???
明 Ming vs Minh vs Min vs Miang (?)

At this level, I would say that we can't be sure... I can pronounce palatal stop endings and I don't know would people more likely to interpret it as alveolar or velar... got to find some Cantonese around here to test

You can even give me mere "guesses" or "simple observations"...
Anyway, "no evidence" does not mean "not true"...

[qrasy]

having lived in northern Jiangsu for a while, I really didn't regard the languages spoken by pple around me as mandarin, they are too different from Beijing, Shandong
or even Henan...

well at least they are more mandarin than shanghainese ..

Try to hear Sichuanese... you may find that it doesn't hear like Mandarin. But in classification, it is usually not considered "separate" language...

[General_Zhaoyun]

I've heard Sichuan dialect before.... its pronunciation are almost similar to Mandarin, except that its tone are different

[hky4eva~]

You talk as if vietnam is the center of all "bai yue" people.

Most of the "bai yue" are the tai-kadai group of people. Vietnamese are assumed to be 'mon khmer' stock although this is debatable. Bai yue includes tai-kadai, mon khmer, miau yao etc. These different groups are as related to each other as they are to sino-tibetan.

Vietnamese are ethnically similar to Bai Yue people, in ancient times both Vietnamese and Aboriginal peoples in Southern China were called Yue. Do you mean Sino-Tibetan as in Han Chinese? If so, the Bai Yue tribes cannot be "as related to each other as they are to sino-tibetan". Historical records describe Bai Yue as shorter, darker and having different facial features to Han Chinese. Also, their language and culture compared to Han Chinese were very different, which was why ancient Han called the Yue peoples as 'Nam Man' or southern barabarians.

Most tai-kadai group of people still reside in gwangxi and yunnan, so how can they be all 'driven' to vietnam ? Anyway, when the han chinese conquered the south during the qin to tang dynasty, vietnam was still part of china, so driving the yue to vietnam (as you claim) won't solve anything as it is still part of china.
It is just like driving the zhuang people from gwangxi people to tibet now when both provinces are part of china.

When a foreign force invades a nation, the people of the suffering areas would flee to more secure areas. So why can't Guangxi zhuang people flee to Tibet (if the conquerors were invading from Guangxi)? If people didn't flee to other provinces than how would you explain the millions of Han refugees fleeing North China to South China during East Jin, Jin invasion of North Song and Mongol invasion of Jin and Southern Song? The Han Chinese conquered the Yue kingdom of Nan Yue during the Han dynasty. The kingdom consisted of Guangdong and North Vietnam. So then conquest of the kingdom would of pushed the Yue peoples from Guangdong into North Vietnam.

I don't see most tibetans being driven away to india in this century ? I don't see manchurians being driven to outer manchuria/russia in this century ?

Some Tibetans were driven to India. But majority weren't because India was a totaly different nation with different culture, language etc. This cannot apply to Bai Yue as Bai Yue were essentaily the same as Yue in Vietnam + the Bai Yue and Vietnamese were in the SAME kingdom of Nanyue

Manchurians weren't driven to Russia because of the same reason stated above. As for why they weren't driven to outer Manchuria, was because they were not being conquered/ invaded, it was a mere change of government from Qing -> Republic, not an invasion as Han did to the Yues. Also, the Manchurians (the invaders) were largely assimilated with the Han (the natives), it is illogical to apply this example to Han and Yue as Han were the invaders while Yue were the natives + the Han never assimilated into the Yue.

You may want to deny that some southern chinese have bai yue blood but that is also the same thing as denying that some northern chinese have 'mongolian, manchurian' or other altaic blood.

I have never denied that. In my post i clearly stated that I understand Southern Chinese have incorporated Bai Yue blood. But I've also explained why the presence of Bai Yue blood would be VERY low in Cantonese+Hakka.

Edited by hky4eva~, 18 May 2006 - 03:47 AM.

[qrasy]

Historical records describe Bai Yue as shorter, darker and having different facial features to Han Chinese.

This should be the first time I hear of this... Can you show me some sources about that?

[hky4eva~]

Quote "Hakka:
Similarities: Preserves a full complement of Middle Chinese stop consonants (-n, -ng, -m, -p, -t, -k); initials are similar; vowels are similar.
Differences: Some tones are lost."

while Hakka preserved the full set of finals, in many words originally with -k/ ng final, there are a tendency to innovate towards -t/n final. Cantonese is more conservative in this respect.

eg. Cantonese Hakka
eat sik seet
north pak pet
ok/fine tak tet

i need to think of more examples...

Is this majority of Hakka speakers or just a recent trend? Is Hakka pronounciation taught in schools in China?

Standard Cantonese isn't taught in schools in HK so many people mispronounce words (so called 'lazy sounds'), though the media attempts to avoid this. Majority of Cantonese people I know displace the initial 'n-' with the initial 'l-'. Does this happen in Hakka as well?

[Centaur]

Thank goodness for this thread that I now slowly recall some words of Hakka. I was brought up in a Cantonese/Teochew household, although my father was Hakka. I speak Cantonese to my mum and teochew with my dad. My grandfather died too early for me to communicate with him.

I guess I will be spending sometime re-learning all that I have lost.

[lifezard]

for gods' sake, Sichuan dialect is so intelligible to Mandarin speakers..... I can understand 70% of it even if though I dun speak the dialect..

it really put to suspect all the previous stuff you written.. perhaps you should take a trip around China and hear what the people are speaking , not just relying on the books...

Try to hear Sichuanese... you may find that it doesn't hear like Mandarin. But in classification, it is usually not considered "separate" language...

[lifezard]

Historical records describe Bai Yue as shorter, darker and having different facial features to Han Chinese. Also, their language and culture compared to Han Chinese were very different, which was why ancient Han called the Yue peoples as 'Nam Man' or southern barabarians.

funny you should mentioned this, the above description is what Northern and Middle Chinese like to give to people of Fujian and Guangdong... i.e. Cantonese, Hokkiens, Hakkas, Teochews....

When a foreign force invades a nation, the people of the suffering areas would flee to more secure areas. So why can't Guangxi zhuang people flee to Tibet (if the conquerors were invading from Guangxi)?
In my post i clearly stated that I understand Southern Chinese have incorporated Bai Yue blood. But I've also explained why the presence of Bai Yue blood would be VERY low in Cantonese+Hakka.

no you have not, i dun think your explanation convinced anyone..

If people didn't flee to other provinces than how would you explain the millions of Han refugees fleeing North China to South China during East Jin, Jin invasion of North Song and Mongol invasion of Jin and Southern Song? The Han Chinese conquered the Yue kingdom of Nan Yue during the Han dynasty. The kingdom consisted of Guangdong and North Vietnam. So then conquest of the kingdom would of pushed the Yue peoples from Guangdong into North Vietnam.

only the royal family and the nobles came from Central Plains China. And then, not full-blooded too. Remember Zhao Tuo married local, and probably his troops too. And.. by the way, Nan Yue included Northern Vietnam too, your theory is a joke, pushing Yue people from a part of your Nan Yue to another part..

[lifezard]

Is this majority of Hakka speakers or just a recent trend? Is Hakka pronounciation taught in schools in China?

Standard Cantonese isn't taught in schools in HK so many people mispronounce words (so called 'lazy sounds'), though the media attempts to avoid this. Majority of Cantonese people I know displace the initial 'n-' with the initial 'l-'. Does this happen in Hakka as well?

what I was mentioning is not the '懒音' of turning n- into l- ...many parts of China has this feature, not just Cantonese, try visiting Yangzhou and Hefei...

Hakka has not been affected by this "lan yin" trend in general (at least not yet). The features I mentioned are pretty old, at least for a few generations, cause Hakkas from different areas has this feature also.. (please leave out the Hakkas from Shanghang, Changting etc from Fujian)

[hky4eva~]

funny you should mentioned this, the above description is what Northern and Middle Chinese like to give to people of Fujian and Guangdong... i.e. Cantonese, Hokkiens, Hakkas, Teochews....

huh? are you sure you read the right post?

only the royal family and the nobles came from Central Plains China. And then, not full-blooded too.

Thats impossible. Historians estimate that 5 million people crossed the Yangtze river to Southern China because of Jurchen invasions. Do you think normal citizens would stay in Northern China to get massacred?

And.. by the way, Nan Yue included Northern Vietnam too, your theory is a joke, pushing Yue people from a part of your Nan Yue to another part..

Why not? Han people were pushed from Northern China into Southern China countless of times because of invasions. What are you on about?