31 replies to this topic

[Han_Chinese]

I think when I made this thread, the "philosophy-religions" are probably mainly composed of Buddhism, Confucianism, and Taoism.

As an atheist myself that only believe science (and I still do), I am beginning to consider adopting to one of these non-monotheistic believes, or maybe just be a polytheist and learn from each and everyone of them.

So, can anyone please give me a little introduction to what each one is about, and their backgrounds?

Thank you all in advance very much, as my future faith may depend on this!

[janz]

learn Philosophy is different from adopting to one of these non-monotheistic believes. if you adopt one of the religion, then you are not an atheist. atheists don't believe god/gods exist, including any form of god. atheist and any religion are contradiction to each other. i think right now, you are more of an agnostic than atheist.

here is an article about agnostic, it's writen by Bertrand Russell.
http://www.arts.cuhk...ll/agnostic.htm

hell, i like the idea of none-doing from Taoism.... ok, this is a joke... nevermind.

[MengTzu]

I think when I made this thread, the "philosophy-religions" are probably mainly composed of Buddhism, Confucianism, and Taoism.

As an atheist myself that only believe science (and I still do), I am beginning to consider adopting to one of these non-monotheistic believes, or maybe just be a polytheist and learn from each and everyone of them.

So, can anyone please give me a little introduction to what each one is about, and their backgrounds?

Thank you all in advance very much, as my future faith may depend on this!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey Han Chinese,

You'd let your faith depends on message board replies? Well, I feel qualified to talk about Confucianism. I have knowledge of the other two, but I don't think I can render them enough justice. Confucianism isn't exactly a religion, nor even a code of life, surprisingly. Even though the definition of Confucianism is up for grabs, I suggest this approach of looking at it: it is primarily a way of learning and thinking. It is its unique form of logic: rectification of names, root and branch analogy, and many others, that serves as the basis of it. The reason I don't call it a religion is because it's difficult for the general population to follow its religious customs nowadays, and because there's no one absolute religious goal for Confucianism. I don't call it a way of living is because it is inherently diverse (there are different moral interpretations within Confucianism) and that it appears blind faith to simply live according to the typically Confucian moral codes.

Confucianism is extremely diverse in terms of the subject matters it covers: Ethics, philosophy, religiosity, spirituality, literature, art, music, history, politics, sociology, economics, science, etc. To simplify it, I think five general categories suffice to cover it all: ethics, metaphysics, spirituality, politics (this also includes ecnomics,) and culture (this also includes history.) Since you're looking for a spiritual guidance, I suggest you focus on the spiritual aspect: the Confucian strives to cultivate himself. Now this can be really simple or very complex. For now I'll just explain simply: it means realizing your inherent goodness. Whether or not Meng Tzu (not me, I am talking about the sage himself) was right that "the beginning of a human is good," one cannot deny that everyone has a tendency towords goodness: Meng Tzu used an example, when a child is about to fall into a well, the immediate emotion of a witness is alarm; he might choose not to save the kid for some other considerations, but that's already his second reaction -- at the very moment before he can think he feels that something terrible is about to happen. Self-cultivation is to bring this "unprocessed" good nature of ours into fruition, like a seed growing into a tree.

Confucianism, like many traditions, had its share of flaws. While it's unfair that among all the traditions that have elements of sexism, Confucianism is often singled out for it. Regardless, it is a coward who compare flaws, saying that his flaw is less than others and therefore trivial (like a story Meng Tzu told us, that a soldier who fled 50 steps laughed at one who fled 100 steps.) Confucianism, however, is not merely a list of moral code: since it has its inherent logic, one can transform its specific moral rules without changing its basic logic upon which it revolves. Confucius himself demonstrated that custom is a changing phenomenon, and the sexist elements in historical Confucianism certainly can be changed and must be changed. I suggest that you can start studying the Confucian classics, such as the simple and basic ones, like Da Xue and Zhong Yong. It's difficult to talk about Confucianism without going on and on endlessly, so it's best to discuss specific questions.

Peace,

Michael

10-4-2004

[Han_Chinese]

Hey Han Chinese,

    You'd let your faith depends on message board replies?   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Haha, I am actually exaggerating, with a hint of sarcasm at that (the rolling eyes smilies was put there to imply that).

Well, I am just trying to learn more philosophies for enlightenment, and find ways of life. So don't mind me.

Meanwhile, thanks for your definition to Confucianism, I will take my next step of research to the library soon... if they even have books about Chinese philosophies in Canada...

[MengTzu]

Hey Han Chinese,

You might be surprised how interested the West is about Eastern religions. Beliefnet.com, for example, has sections about Eastern religions and many Westerners who post there are devout followers. But here in is a dilemma: they also fantasize the East quite excessively. Movies such as "Little Buddha" seems almost skin deep: the West often sees the East as a very idealistic fairy tale. Same, in fact, can be said about the Eastern view of the West. I know many Chinese from Hong Kong who think that everything from the "gueilo" ("ghost-people," a.k.a. Westerners) is better. To the West, the East is this mystical and transcendant utopia, while to the East, the West is this high-tech futuristic as well as classy civilization. (Of course, the perceived defects are just as exaggerated: the West sees the Easterners as weak and effeminate, while the East sees Westerners as promiscuous and faithless lovers.) Hence, to study Confucianism (in fact, if not for the convenience of the terms, I won't even call it Confucianism, it's latinized name with so many Western presumptions attached -- I'd call it Rujia or Kongjia, or Kong Rujia,) you might want to find older sources, such as ancient commentaries of Cheng Hsuan and Chu Hsi. Even newer Chinese sources can be affected by the West -- now, Western view isn't necessarily flawed, but to insist on it alone would form a narrow definition of Rujia.

Peace,

Michael

10-4-2004

[yehzhaofeng]

Not necessarily. Most of us in the West fear China as a threat, LOL. Just the other day, during an assembly by the Principal to rally us into working hard and doing our best for our sake. he mentioned if we don't work and advance, other countries, Like China will become stronger than the US. Have you seen the Chinese workforce?

I was shocked. But not surprised, we have every right to fear China. I as an AMerican does fear China in a non-loving way.



I loved the movie, Little Buddha, as well as Kunlun, and The Last Emperor. The Last Emperor fits your description moe than Little Buddha since Little Buddha talked about the mystical life of Buddha himself while showing another story about reicarnationa nd that there was a spirit in 3 bodies. These movies are some of my favorites.

[MengTzu]

Not necessarily. Most of us in the West fear China as a threat, LOL. Just the other day, during an assembly by the Principal to rally us into working hard and doing our best for our sake. he mentioned if we don't work and advance, other countries, Like China will become stronger than the US. Have you seen the Chinese workforce?

Hey, I'm an American too. Like I said, the East is both fantasized into something great and something strange (it's not always positive. I'm sure you heard of the Chinese men with small dicks and Chinese women sex slaves stereotype.) By the same token, the East fantasize about the West into a great civilization but also a shallow and brutal culture, among other things. Of course, all of these fantasies suddenly dissipate when money is involved. I studied sociology in UC Berkeley, and this fear you mentioned was a major issue discussed in class.

I was shocked. But not surprised, we have every right to fear China. I as an AMerican does fear China in a non-loving way.
I loved the movie, Little Buddha, as well as Kunlun, and The Last Emperor.  The Last Emperor fits your description moe than Little Buddha since Little Buddha talked about the mystical life of Buddha himself while showing another story about reicarnationa nd that there was a spirit in 3 bodies. These movies are some of my favorites.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Having lived half my life in Hong Kong, and half my life in the US, I must say that Little Buddha, Last Samurai, and the similar movies all involve some level of fantasization of the East. The East, by the same token, has many similar fantasization of the West in its media. It's hard to explain, but it's something easier to see from my perspective -- besides, I was trained in school for seeing and studying this sort of thing.

Peace,

Michael

10-6-2004

[MengTzu]

Hey Ironmouse,

I understand what you're saying, but something else you cannot possibly know -- a lot of Americans are sick of that American supremacy bs. A lot of Americans are sick of Bush going around the world picking fights. Sure, some Americans still suppor that sort of thing, but we have a name for these people -- we call them hicks, uneducated people who don't represent what most Americans want. The fear that Andrew Yip speak of is the fear of every First World country, althouhg of course, this fear is more of a political tool than a real fear (American industry has not gone down despite of foreign labor.) It's people like Bush who uses this kind of fear to keep his people trusting.

Peace,

Michael

10-6-2004

[Kulong]

I understand what you're saying, but something else you cannot possibly know -- a lot of Americans are sick of that American supremacy bs.  A lot of Americans are sick of Bush going around the world picking fights.  Sure, some Americans still suppor that sort of thing, but we have a name for these people -- we call them hicks, uneducated people who don't represent what most Americans want.  The fear that Andrew Yip speak of is the fear of every First World country, althouhg of course, this fear is more of a political tool than a real fear (American industry has not gone down despite of foreign labor.)  It's people like Bush who uses this kind of fear to keep his people trusting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Under my impression, especially here in Texas, a gross majority of people still support Bush and him "going around the world picking fights".

[RollingWave]

The 3 religion philosaphies are somewhat interwinded in the way it plays out in Chinese life... after the Tang dynasty it really start to become rather hard to tell them apart (or rather.. hard to pinpoint which religion's influenced cause certain traditions etc...)

The overall best example is probably the ancestral worship... if there is ONE thing you can point out about Chinese belive, it is the belive of ancestral worship, but what is it's origin? RuJia was the true pioneer... but most of the practice invovled in it right now is mostly Daoism with some Buddism mixed in...

Daoism is also a very special subject to study, there are acturally 2 aspect of it, the Religious side and the philosophy side... while the religon side is arguablly originating out of the philosophy side... they can be extremely different. the Dao Jia philosophy from the Eastern Zhou era is very deep with a good deal of mystical aspect... but not really any suggested religious activities...... it is much the same as the the teachings of Confucious except from a different prespective. (many times.. .the opposite prespective.)

A example is a few quote of Lao Zi, "A minor thief steals a hook, a major theif steals a nation, the hook stealer gets hanged, the nation stealer become a lord" "A stiff tree breaks in a strong wind but the bending grass stays attached" Casual observation at first glance but holds some very deep thinking behind them... that is basically the way Daoism philosophy worked.

it's view on politics was also quiet different from that of Confucism and other philosophies at it's time, Ryujia believed in the rule of saints, that a nation would be best run when a man of great moral and capability is in charged, while legalist belived in the rule of law, that a nations rule depends not on the moral and capability of it's ruler but on a strict laid down rule, where as Daoism belived in 無為而治( hard to translate... the rule that doesn't exist) they basically say things such as "a nation is best when a government try to make as little interference as possible (lol they sound like classical economist)" "the best ruler is one where the people don't even know he is there" "the most opitimised state should be a small one with sparse population " etc...

Although much of it did sound inpractical... one thing that was important and noticed by many rulers later on is that governmenst often achieve more by doing nothing instead of trying to do everything.. more often a nation cripple itself trying to do too much while the achieved results don't even pay for the real social cost... the philosaphy had a rather logn lasting effect from the Han dynasty and on, you can see it's shadow in the way local poltics in chinese history worked.

The religious factor was another thing, it did seem to bring a couple of things together... i'll get to it some other time

[Han_Chinese]

The 3 religion philosaphies are somewhat interwinded in the way it plays out in Chinese life... after the Tang dynasty it really start to become rather hard to tell them apart (or rather.. hard to pinpoint which religion's influenced cause certain traditions etc...)

    The overall best example is probably the ancestral worship... if there is ONE thing you can point out about Chinese belive, it is the belive of ancestral worship,  but what is it's origin? RuJia was the true pioneer... but most of the practice invovled in it right now is mostly Daoism with some Buddism mixed in...

    Daoism is also a very special subject to study, there are acturally 2 aspect of it, the Religious side and the philosophy side... while the religon side is arguablly originating out of the philosophy side... they can be extremely different. the Dao Jia philosophy from the Eastern Zhou era is very deep with a good deal of mystical aspect... but not really any suggested religious activities......  it is much the same as the the teachings of Confucious except from a different prespective. (many times.. .the opposite prespective.)

  A example is a few quote of Lao Zi, "A minor thief steals a hook, a major theif steals a nation, the hook stealer gets hanged, the nation stealer become a lord" "A stiff tree breaks in a strong wind but the bending grass stays attached" Casual observation at first glance but holds some very deep thinking behind them... that is basically the way Daoism philosophy worked.

  it's view on politics was also quiet different from that of Confucism and other  philosophies at it's time, Ryujia believed in the rule of saints, that a nation would be best run when a man of great moral and capability is in charged, while legalist belived in the rule of law, that a nations rule depends not on the moral and capability of it's ruler but on a strict laid down rule, where as Daoism belived in 無為而治( hard to translate... the rule that doesn't exist) they basically say things such as "a nation is best when a government try to make as little interference as possible (lol they sound like classical economist)" "the best ruler is one where the people don't even know he is there" "the most opitimised state should be a small one with sparse population " etc... 

  Although much of it did sound inpractical... one thing that was important and noticed by many rulers later on is that governmenst often achieve more by doing nothing instead of trying to do everything.. more often a nation cripple itself trying to do too much while the achieved results don't even pay for the real social cost... the philosaphy had a rather logn lasting effect from the Han dynasty and on, you can see it's shadow in the way local poltics in chinese history worked.

  The religious factor was another thing, it did seem to bring a couple of things together... i'll get to it some other time

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow, I actually understood a lot from this post. Thank you, RollingWave.

What you say about the philosophies of these religions intertwining with each other seems amazing... If Confucianism and Daoism has opposing political stances, I can't imagine what allowed these to mix.

From what you have told me about hard to tell apart the three, I think I should go right out, and just try to learn to be a true Chinese. Being able to read, write, and speak the language just isn't enough anymore.

Too bad there are no books similar to "Learning the Chinese Ways for Dummies".

[MengTzu]

Hey Kulong,

Unfortunately, a lot of hicks still populate the south. Now, it's not only hicks who support Bush -- there are some moderate conservatives who still feel that Bush's stance on other issues (besides the war) is correct -- such as regarding abortion. Not all Bush supporters support the war either -- they just feel conscience bound to support the conservative stance on other issues.

Peace,

Michael

10-7-2004

[MengTzu]

Wow, I actually understood a lot from this post. Thank you, RollingWave.

What you say about the philosophies of these religions intertwining with each other seems amazing... If Confucianism and Daoism has opposing political stances, I can't imagine what allowed these to mix.

From what you have told me about hard to tell apart the three, I think I should go right out, and just try to learn to be a true Chinese. Being able to read, write, and speak the language just isn't enough anymore.

Too bad there are no books similar to "Learning the Chinese Ways for Dummies".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is a Eastern Philosophies for Dummies I think.

The idea that Confucianism and Taoism had always been hostile is actually an incomplete idea. Archeological evidence shows that they probably started out from the same general discourse -- manucripts of the Tao Te Ching are found in the Guo Dian tombs, but these manuscripts have no mention of anti-Confucian stuff, and were in fact found in the same site with a number of Confucian and Taoist classics, some of these had never been seen. These are the earliest manuscripts of Chinese classics yet, dating back to 3rd century B.C. I think. So what probably happened was, in early times, the different trends of Chinese thoughts were kind of intermixed, then later became more separated, and then became again intermixed. When you study these philosophies, be sure to note that all Chinese schools share a pool of vocabs, so to speak, some foundational concepts that all schools try to discuss from similar or different perspectives. When Buddhism was becoming a part of Chinese culture, it contributed tremendously to that pool of ideas, while at the same time adopted many Chinese ideas.

As a self-proclaimed student of Kong Ru, I find that I often become drawn to Taoism and Buddhism. A great book, Chai Jin Tan (The Discourse of Vegetable Roots) is a great syncretism of the three schools. As time went by, Confucianism has influences even from beyond these two trends; that's just how any ideology is, and in China's case, Chinese probably just have a tendency for syncretism.

Peace,

Michael

10-7-2004

[MengTzu]

Hey Rolling Wave,

I'm so glad that you didn't say "first there was philosophical Taoism, then there was religious Taoism." Instead, you treated them as two aspects of the same thing. I wonder if it's even better if we don't limit to these two aspects arbitrarily, because just the religious aspect alone has so many diversities within it (like the study of the canon, the use of talisman, the accumulation of merits, the practice of qigong, the cult of the deities, fortune telling, etc.) and these aspects all include many of the philosophical aspect of Taoism (after all, Tao Te Ching and other philosophical texts are a part of the Taoist canon.) I do agree that Taoism is extremely interesting.