I've got an "Introducing Eastern Philosophy" book which is quite good in its approach, but what bugs me is that in the same series, "Freud", "Marx" and "Hegel" all get standalone books (as they SHOULD), but religions/philosophy as diverse as Hinduism, Taoism, Confucianism, The Legalists, Chan Buddism and Zen Buddhism gets lumped pell-mell into the same book. As already said on this thread, there is a certain degree of Western fantasy and exoticism placed on "The East". It must be nice to be a WASP, and being able to get a handy package which will give you your daily dose of Eastern Wisdom and Mysticism. >_< And ta-da! Here's a new topic of conversation in your workplace!
Talking about the "philosophy-religions" of "The East", I think it's important we remember how European ideas shaped the English language, namely in the Age of Enlightenment and the Renaissance. There are clear, distinct differences between the ideasof "philosophy', of "science" and of "religion" in European culture; infact, they are even seen as conflicting.
This CLEAR distinction doesn't quite exist in "The East" - contradicting ideas abound in the so-called "Chinese Philosophy-religions", especially when it comes to something like Taoism, but it was never really much cause for conflict. In fact, for Taoism, the boundaries of "religion", "philosophy" and "science" are rather fuzzy, if they're there at all. That's why I also hesitate in separating philosphical and religious Taoism, because nothing in Chinese (or even Indian) culture dictates that they OUGHT to be separate.
And I don't see why someone can't religion-hop. I used to be Christian, turned Athiest, then turned Agnostic, then decided to to call my belief in some sort of "universal energy source" the "Tao". Does that mean I'm a "Taoist"? Maybe, maybe not. It doesn't particularly matter to me, though I'm intensely interested in all aspects of Taoism.
Traditional "Philosophy-religions" of China...
Started by
Han_Chinese
, Oct 03 2004 01:02 PM
31 replies to this topic
#17
MengTzu
-
- Entry Scholar (Xiucai)
-
- 2,105 posts
Emperor (Huangdi 皇帝)
-
Main Interest in CHF:
Chinese Philosophy
-
Specialisation / Expertise:
General Chinese Philosophy and Religion, Confucianism
Posted 08 October 2004 - 02:13 AM
Hey Ironmouse,
That has got to be one of the finest thing said on this board. You have no idea how many times I try to communicate this idea that we are looking at the East with Western lens -- as surprisingly as it is gonna sound, even the East looks at itself with Western lens sometimes. This is especially prevalent in nationalistic debates. We take for granted that, for example, "emperor" means "di," but when we make that strict translation we carry over into the notion of "di" something that might have been foreign to it. Religion is another great example -- it's so difficult to understand Eastern traditions because they rarely fit into the categorization that the West has for religions.
Peace,
Michael
10-8-2004
That has got to be one of the finest thing said on this board. You have no idea how many times I try to communicate this idea that we are looking at the East with Western lens -- as surprisingly as it is gonna sound, even the East looks at itself with Western lens sometimes. This is especially prevalent in nationalistic debates. We take for granted that, for example, "emperor" means "di," but when we make that strict translation we carry over into the notion of "di" something that might have been foreign to it. Religion is another great example -- it's so difficult to understand Eastern traditions because they rarely fit into the categorization that the West has for religions.
Peace,
Michael
10-8-2004
#18
Liang Jieming
-
- CHF Han Lin Scholar
-
- 7,251 posts
Ingénieur chinois de siège
- Location:in the distant past, changing your future...
- Interests:Ancient History with emphasis on the sciences, technological and engineering achievements and milestones. Areas of interest include Mesopotamian, Chinese, Roman, English and Central American history.
-
Main Interest in CHF:
Ancient Chinese Arsenals
-
Specialisation / Expertise:
Ancient Siege Weaponry
Posted 08 October 2004 - 02:28 AM
Scholars, Philosophers and Soldiers - The Spring and Autumn Annals and The Warring States Period
(with reference to "Warlords of China 700BC to AD1662". Arms and Armour Press, 1998, Chris Peers.)
The era of the Spring and Autumn Annals, with the subsequent Warring States period - roughly from
the 7th to the 3rd centuries BC - together constitute one of the most intellectually exciting periods in
world history. In every sphere of human activity, the Chinese were breaking new ground, speculating
and experimenting on a massive scale in fields as diverse as philosophy, government, technology
and art. Far from being a deliberately planned programme, this progress was so successful precisely
because it was spontaneous. The intellectual ferment of these centuries has often been contrasted
with the more restrictive climate that sometimes prevailed in subsequent ages - especially under the
later empire, when a centralised government was able to exert closer control over ideology.
In fact, one of the most important factors that encouraged the flowering of ideas was the political
fragmentation of the period. With dozens of competing states and rulers, each having their own
traditions and theories of government, no single ideology could become sufficiently powerful to
suppress the others. And yet at the same time, there was enough cultureal unity - in language and
a shared historical heritage, for example - to permit extensive cross-fertilisation. This is a
phenomenon that is also familiar from other times and countries which have become famous for their
originality: Classical Greece and Renaissance Italy are among the most obvious examples.
The four major philosopies of the time which greatly influenced the thinking of the times were the
Taoist, the Mohists, the Confucians and the Legalist.
< The Taoist >
Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching, the first classic of Taoism is a work which probably dates from about the 5th
century BC. This work greatly influence the works of later philosophers and writers. Sun Tze, who
wrote the now famous Sun Tze Ping Fa (Sun Tze's Art of War) draws heavily on Taoism and many
passages in the Sun Tze's Art of War are reminiscent to passages found in the Tao Te Ching.
For Lao Tzu's disciples, the secret of success in any enterprise is the Tao, the 'Way' - impossible to
define or describe, predating and underpinning morality, law, ritual and all the other supposed
fundamentals of human society.
< The Mohist >
Mo Tzu, who died in 381 BC was another important philosopher during this period in history. His
followers are known as the Mohists. Mo Tze condemned aggressive war, denouncing it as nothing
more than robbery and murder on a large scale. He was far from being a conventional pacifist,
however, and in his writings, he expounded a number of practical techniques that victims of aggression
could use to defend themselves.
During the wars of the 4th century BC, groups of Mohists often went to the rescue of small states
which were being victimised by larger ones. They used a surprising variety of clever inventions,
these included pulleys and counterweight engines for defending city walls, methods for detecting
beseigers' tunnels by sound location, and poisonous smoke which could be blown down the tunnels
to suffocate the attackers.
< The Confucians >
The Confucians believed in the neccessity of ritual and correct behaviour. The strict morality of
authority practiced by the Confucians, believed that a ruler who was sufficiently enlightened, had a
moral responsibility to his people and his people in return would have a moral responsibility to their ruler.
Hsun Tze, a 3rd century follower of Confucius, believed in the innate benevolence of human beings and
tried to apply this to the brutal business of war He insisted that 'the armies of the benevolent man
cannot use deceit'. Hsun Tze carried this further and considered that if a ruler was a good ruler and
treated his people well and with benevolence, the enemy's soldiers would learn of his reputation and
would refuse to fight against him. This according the the Confucian view of history, was the basis which
the early Chou kings had established their authority.
< The Legalists >
The ideas of the Legalists were popular with statesmen of the era The name is derived from their
uncompromising insistence on the rule of law. They were in fact, early totalitarians, who had little
interest in individual morality and who saw their sole aim as the strenghtening of the state. This was
achieved through efficient, centralised administration, coupled with an inflexible and utterly ruthless
system of rewards and punishments.
Lord Shang, a famous Legalist, reorganised the state of Ch'in between 350-338BC along Legalist lines.
This formed the basis for the strength of the Ch'in army, setting the stage for the later Prince Cheng,
who went on to become Shih Huang-ti, the First Emperor of China.
After the Warring States period, the teachings of the classical philosophers enjoyed varying fortunes.
Mohism virtually disappeared. Taoism declined into a collection of popular superstitions concerned with
such matters as the prolongation of life. The Legalists enjoyed a brief period of unchallenged supremacy
with the reunification of China by the Ch'in dynasty in 221BC, but the savagery of Ch'in rule helped to
discredit them. The institutions of the succeeding Han dynasty still owed much to Legalist thought, but
over the later centuries it was the Confucians whose influence came to dominate. Ultimately, this
victory of the Confucianists was one of the factors behind the decreasing status of the military in China
and the paternalistic ritualization of many aspects of traditional Chinese society.
(with reference to "Warlords of China 700BC to AD1662". Arms and Armour Press, 1998, Chris Peers.)
The era of the Spring and Autumn Annals, with the subsequent Warring States period - roughly from
the 7th to the 3rd centuries BC - together constitute one of the most intellectually exciting periods in
world history. In every sphere of human activity, the Chinese were breaking new ground, speculating
and experimenting on a massive scale in fields as diverse as philosophy, government, technology
and art. Far from being a deliberately planned programme, this progress was so successful precisely
because it was spontaneous. The intellectual ferment of these centuries has often been contrasted
with the more restrictive climate that sometimes prevailed in subsequent ages - especially under the
later empire, when a centralised government was able to exert closer control over ideology.
In fact, one of the most important factors that encouraged the flowering of ideas was the political
fragmentation of the period. With dozens of competing states and rulers, each having their own
traditions and theories of government, no single ideology could become sufficiently powerful to
suppress the others. And yet at the same time, there was enough cultureal unity - in language and
a shared historical heritage, for example - to permit extensive cross-fertilisation. This is a
phenomenon that is also familiar from other times and countries which have become famous for their
originality: Classical Greece and Renaissance Italy are among the most obvious examples.
The four major philosopies of the time which greatly influenced the thinking of the times were the
Taoist, the Mohists, the Confucians and the Legalist.
< The Taoist >
Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching, the first classic of Taoism is a work which probably dates from about the 5th
century BC. This work greatly influence the works of later philosophers and writers. Sun Tze, who
wrote the now famous Sun Tze Ping Fa (Sun Tze's Art of War) draws heavily on Taoism and many
passages in the Sun Tze's Art of War are reminiscent to passages found in the Tao Te Ching.
For Lao Tzu's disciples, the secret of success in any enterprise is the Tao, the 'Way' - impossible to
define or describe, predating and underpinning morality, law, ritual and all the other supposed
fundamentals of human society.
< The Mohist >
Mo Tzu, who died in 381 BC was another important philosopher during this period in history. His
followers are known as the Mohists. Mo Tze condemned aggressive war, denouncing it as nothing
more than robbery and murder on a large scale. He was far from being a conventional pacifist,
however, and in his writings, he expounded a number of practical techniques that victims of aggression
could use to defend themselves.
During the wars of the 4th century BC, groups of Mohists often went to the rescue of small states
which were being victimised by larger ones. They used a surprising variety of clever inventions,
these included pulleys and counterweight engines for defending city walls, methods for detecting
beseigers' tunnels by sound location, and poisonous smoke which could be blown down the tunnels
to suffocate the attackers.
< The Confucians >
The Confucians believed in the neccessity of ritual and correct behaviour. The strict morality of
authority practiced by the Confucians, believed that a ruler who was sufficiently enlightened, had a
moral responsibility to his people and his people in return would have a moral responsibility to their ruler.
Hsun Tze, a 3rd century follower of Confucius, believed in the innate benevolence of human beings and
tried to apply this to the brutal business of war He insisted that 'the armies of the benevolent man
cannot use deceit'. Hsun Tze carried this further and considered that if a ruler was a good ruler and
treated his people well and with benevolence, the enemy's soldiers would learn of his reputation and
would refuse to fight against him. This according the the Confucian view of history, was the basis which
the early Chou kings had established their authority.
< The Legalists >
The ideas of the Legalists were popular with statesmen of the era The name is derived from their
uncompromising insistence on the rule of law. They were in fact, early totalitarians, who had little
interest in individual morality and who saw their sole aim as the strenghtening of the state. This was
achieved through efficient, centralised administration, coupled with an inflexible and utterly ruthless
system of rewards and punishments.
Lord Shang, a famous Legalist, reorganised the state of Ch'in between 350-338BC along Legalist lines.
This formed the basis for the strength of the Ch'in army, setting the stage for the later Prince Cheng,
who went on to become Shih Huang-ti, the First Emperor of China.
After the Warring States period, the teachings of the classical philosophers enjoyed varying fortunes.
Mohism virtually disappeared. Taoism declined into a collection of popular superstitions concerned with
such matters as the prolongation of life. The Legalists enjoyed a brief period of unchallenged supremacy
with the reunification of China by the Ch'in dynasty in 221BC, but the savagery of Ch'in rule helped to
discredit them. The institutions of the succeeding Han dynasty still owed much to Legalist thought, but
over the later centuries it was the Confucians whose influence came to dominate. Ultimately, this
victory of the Confucianists was one of the factors behind the decreasing status of the military in China
and the paternalistic ritualization of many aspects of traditional Chinese society.
#19
RollingWave
-
- Entry Scholar (Xiucai)
-
- 606 posts
State Undersecretary (Shangshu Lang 尚书郎)
-
Main Interest in CHF:
Chinese History
-
Specialisation / Expertise:
Song dynasty history, ROC history
Posted 09 October 2004 - 12:25 AM
Hey Rolling Wave,
I'm so glad that you didn't say "first there was philosophical Taoism, then there was religious Taoism." Instead, you treated them as two aspects of the same thing. I wonder if it's even better if we don't limit to these two aspects arbitrarily, because just the religious aspect alone has so many diversities within it (like the study of the canon, the use of talisman, the accumulation of merits, the practice of qigong, the cult of the deities, fortune telling, etc.) and these aspects all include many of the philosophical aspect of Taoism (after all, Tao Te Ching and other philosophical texts are a part of the Taoist canon.) I do agree that Taoism is extremely interesting.
Well i'm not a scholar on this subject and you really have to put down some sort of seperation to make this acturally fit into a readable online post instead of some kind of 10 page graduate paper:lol:
I think from my understanding Daoism and Confucisim originally is kinda like conservative and liberals today... they are going for the same basic ideas but take rather different stands and approach.. it's more original scholars like Lao Zi although never seem to attack confucisim directly... you can clearly see some reference where it try to look at the same thing but take different approach... for example it's view of a "Saint" or the prioirty of running a nation etc...
For the religion aspect... you can't seperate them... when Daoism existed it came with some flavor of religion already, so did Confucism... the difference is that Daoist is more mystic... and thus had a bit more room to develope ... but it was undeniable that the religious aspect of Daosim really fully developed much later than it's philosophy side...
What you say about the philosophies of these religions intertwining with each other seems amazing... If Confucianism and Daoism has opposing political stances, I can't imagine what allowed these to mix.
Well you already pointed out some of the resasons... their opposition was mostly like political opposition... today we have different political orientations in most democractic countries... but our nation and government is acturally shaped by a mix of both... dispite the fact that they often contradict each other... which was basically the same thing with RuJia/DaoJia .... they had different stance... but it wasn't on a religious level like say Christianity vs Islam... in fact on the religious level they are quiet compatitable... it is basically on the philosophy level where they differ... which allowed them to coexist quiet peacefully.
From my own prespective... I think RuJia talks about the obvious... things you SHOULD do, and how a society SHOULD work.... but the obvious is often not the way things are... and stating it is quiet important..... even today... do we really follow the course of a society or are we hurting it?
But DaoJia speaks from a more personal prespective... they often come from a more natural perspective... the way nature works... to reflect on human societies... or pointing out ironies... it's much more "fun" to read Daojia teachings than RyuJia onces that's for sure... you often get a lot of "hmmm... never thought about that" feelings when you read DaoJia things.
On a more practical level both influenced the way Chinese's political course... although Ryujia is probaly a lot more influential DaoJia's influence is there too (along with legalist... )
無盡黑夜無盡愁, 但盼黎明破曉時
#20
RollingWave
-
- Entry Scholar (Xiucai)
-
- 606 posts
State Undersecretary (Shangshu Lang 尚书郎)
-
Main Interest in CHF:
Chinese History
-
Specialisation / Expertise:
Song dynasty history, ROC history
Posted 09 October 2004 - 12:52 AM
I will quote the first passage in Lao Zi's 道德經, you can see it's incredible depth and also it's very obvious mystical feel... (i can't translate the whole thing... it's way too difficult to understand completely even in Chinese.. espically the first few paragraph)
translation.. will accept any good correction cause this is really tough read even for fluent chinese readers.... :
"You can speak about Dao, But it wouldn't be Dao, You can give it a name, but it wouldn't be his name.
Nothingness is the name of the origin of universe, existenance is the name of the mother of all things. Thus, thinking about nothingness and you will feel the marvel of Dao's essence, thinking about existenace will let you see the working and the endless boundaries of Dao.
Nothingness and Existance are both part of Dao, they both work to create Dao but has different names. You can call both of them Mystical Marvels upon Mystical Marvels (err probably bad translation here but can't think of anything better.) And that is the origin of the Universe and Life; Dao
LOL such a long translation for something that is 59 words in Chinese... shows the truely amazing language that is Chinese XD... and the depth of meaning of Lao Zi's teaching.
Some basic道可道，非常道；名可名，非常名。無、名天地之始；有、名萬物之母。故常無，欲以觀其妙；常有，欲以觀其徼。此兩者，同出而異名，同謂之玄。玄之又玄，眾妙之門。
translation.. will accept any good correction cause this is really tough read even for fluent chinese readers.... :
"You can speak about Dao, But it wouldn't be Dao, You can give it a name, but it wouldn't be his name.
Nothingness is the name of the origin of universe, existenance is the name of the mother of all things. Thus, thinking about nothingness and you will feel the marvel of Dao's essence, thinking about existenace will let you see the working and the endless boundaries of Dao.
Nothingness and Existance are both part of Dao, they both work to create Dao but has different names. You can call both of them Mystical Marvels upon Mystical Marvels (err probably bad translation here but can't think of anything better.) And that is the origin of the Universe and Life; Dao
LOL such a long translation for something that is 59 words in Chinese... shows the truely amazing language that is Chinese XD... and the depth of meaning of Lao Zi's teaching.
無盡黑夜無盡愁, 但盼黎明破曉時
#21
MengTzu
-
- Entry Scholar (Xiucai)
-
- 2,105 posts
Emperor (Huangdi 皇帝)
-
Main Interest in CHF:
Chinese Philosophy
-
Specialisation / Expertise:
General Chinese Philosophy and Religion, Confucianism
Posted 09 October 2004 - 02:58 AM
Hey Rolling Wave,
Apparently it is the nature of ancient Chinese to be brief.
Peace,
Michael
10-9-2004
Apparently it is the nature of ancient Chinese to be brief.
Peace,
Michael
10-9-2004
#22
RollingWave
-
- Entry Scholar (Xiucai)
-
- 606 posts
State Undersecretary (Shangshu Lang 尚书郎)
-
Main Interest in CHF:
Chinese History
-
Specialisation / Expertise:
Song dynasty history, ROC history
Posted 10 October 2004 - 01:23 AM
That and the fact during his time he was probably writing on things like bamboo sticks and thus writing briefly is a lot more convienetly
無盡黑夜無盡愁, 但盼黎明破曉時
#23
MengTzu
-
- Entry Scholar (Xiucai)
-
- 2,105 posts
Emperor (Huangdi 皇帝)
-
Main Interest in CHF:
Chinese Philosophy
-
Specialisation / Expertise:
General Chinese Philosophy and Religion, Confucianism
Posted 10 October 2004 - 02:41 AM
That and the fact during his time he was probably writing on things like bamboo sticks and thus writing briefly is a lot more convienetly
Hey Rolling Wave,
Yeah, so I wonder may be they didn't actually talk like that. May be they just wrote like that, and even simplifed spoken conversations when recording them into writing.
Peace,
Michael
10-10-2004
#24
RollingWave
-
- Entry Scholar (Xiucai)
-
- 606 posts
State Undersecretary (Shangshu Lang 尚书郎)
-
Main Interest in CHF:
Chinese History
-
Specialisation / Expertise:
Song dynasty history, ROC history
Posted 10 October 2004 - 06:35 AM
I'm pretty suer they didn't coverse like that... though they might give a well thought out lecture like that i'm not sure... even today when you listen to a big professor give a speech it's usually not in the way normal ppl talk in every day life 
無盡黑夜無盡愁, 但盼黎明破曉時
#25
Han_Chinese
-
- Novice Scholar (Tongsheng)
-
- 46 posts
Provincial Governor (Cishi 刺史)
-
Main Interest in CHF:
Chinese History
Posted 11 October 2004 - 11:42 PM
I'm pretty suer they didn't coverse like that... though they might give a well thought out lecture like that i'm not sure... even today when you listen to a big professor give a speech it's usually not in the way normal ppl talk in every day life
Wow...
I am so thankful of your enthusiastic attitudes towards this post... I am starting to get a better image of the different "Chinese thoughts" that ultimately formed into one.
I think why Dao is interesting, is because that it looks on both sides of things, and teaches the most important aspect of life: balance.
The ideas of Confucianism seems to generally constricted to a set of views regarding to morals, politics, economics, etc. But this isn't always so, if I am right.
As for Buddhism... It is probably based on pacifism, and being non-ignorant to things around us? Perhaps?
If anything statements that I have made was wrong, please do correct me.
I look forward to hearing more from all of you, but I must apologize that I am having a busy week, and cannot reply as often as I hope to any posts that are directed towards me.
Thank you all.
#26
MengTzu
-
- Entry Scholar (Xiucai)
-
- 2,105 posts
Emperor (Huangdi 皇帝)
-
Main Interest in CHF:
Chinese Philosophy
-
Specialisation / Expertise:
General Chinese Philosophy and Religion, Confucianism
Posted 12 October 2004 - 12:30 AM
Hey Han Chinese,
I would caution that it's not helpful to categorize "Taoism as this, Confucianism as that." These are all pretty restricting constructs that ultimately leave out a lot of precious things about these traditions. Confucianism is never quite so constricted (neither originally nor late in history, though in modern times the impression it gives became quite constricted) to a few subjects, though emphasis might shift over time (but then same is also true with Taoism and Buddhism.) There are those "mundane" things such as politics in Confucianism, but there are things that are mystical as well, such as spirituality and metaphysics. I wouldn't say Confucianism is less mystical than the other two religions. (I think part of the reason that we look at Confucianism as so restricted to mundanity is because the West sees it as being so. Fact is there are some pretty fantastic stuff in Confucianism too.) Please don't fall for the stereotype that Confucianism is only concerned with society -- in a reading of classical Confucianism you find very many metaphysical treastises such as those about Yin and Yang and the five elements.
Taoism is about balance just as much as Confucianism and Buddhism are -- hence I don't think that's enough of a unique categorization. I think the idea of naturalism is prominent -- although again not unique.
Buddhism is pacificist, but pacificism doesn't appear to be its unique feature; Confucianism and Daoism are also quite pacrificistic. If you want to have some kind of categorization to distinguish them, let me try this generalization: all three traditions consider things that are greater than or as great as the universe, and as small as the smallest particle, and they are all concerned with humanity and the world; their differences are in where they want to dwell: the Confucians seek perfection by staying in society and the natural world, Daoists seek transcendence by leaving society to return to nature, Buddhists seek salvation by ultimately leaving society and nature altogether. But Confucians also speculate about the universe, and the Taoists and Buddhist also care about society (Ch'an Buddhists believe in cultivating in everyday life,) and it's not merely that they have different emphasis, but that they have different goals where they eventually seek to rest.
Peace,
Michael
10-11-2004
I would caution that it's not helpful to categorize "Taoism as this, Confucianism as that." These are all pretty restricting constructs that ultimately leave out a lot of precious things about these traditions. Confucianism is never quite so constricted (neither originally nor late in history, though in modern times the impression it gives became quite constricted) to a few subjects, though emphasis might shift over time (but then same is also true with Taoism and Buddhism.) There are those "mundane" things such as politics in Confucianism, but there are things that are mystical as well, such as spirituality and metaphysics. I wouldn't say Confucianism is less mystical than the other two religions. (I think part of the reason that we look at Confucianism as so restricted to mundanity is because the West sees it as being so. Fact is there are some pretty fantastic stuff in Confucianism too.) Please don't fall for the stereotype that Confucianism is only concerned with society -- in a reading of classical Confucianism you find very many metaphysical treastises such as those about Yin and Yang and the five elements.
Taoism is about balance just as much as Confucianism and Buddhism are -- hence I don't think that's enough of a unique categorization. I think the idea of naturalism is prominent -- although again not unique.
Buddhism is pacificist, but pacificism doesn't appear to be its unique feature; Confucianism and Daoism are also quite pacrificistic. If you want to have some kind of categorization to distinguish them, let me try this generalization: all three traditions consider things that are greater than or as great as the universe, and as small as the smallest particle, and they are all concerned with humanity and the world; their differences are in where they want to dwell: the Confucians seek perfection by staying in society and the natural world, Daoists seek transcendence by leaving society to return to nature, Buddhists seek salvation by ultimately leaving society and nature altogether. But Confucians also speculate about the universe, and the Taoists and Buddhist also care about society (Ch'an Buddhists believe in cultivating in everyday life,) and it's not merely that they have different emphasis, but that they have different goals where they eventually seek to rest.
Peace,
Michael
10-11-2004
#27
Han_Chinese
-
- Novice Scholar (Tongsheng)
-
- 46 posts
Provincial Governor (Cishi 刺史)
-
Main Interest in CHF:
Chinese History
Posted 12 October 2004 - 02:52 PM
Hey Han Chinese,
I would caution that it's not helpful to categorize "Taoism as this, Confucianism as that." These are all pretty restricting constructs that ultimately leave out a lot of precious things about these traditions. Confucianism is never quite so constricted (neither originally nor late in history, though in modern times the impression it gives became quite constricted) to a few subjects, though emphasis might shift over time (but then same is also true with Taoism and Buddhism.) There are those "mundane" things such as politics in Confucianism, but there are things that are mystical as well, such as spirituality and metaphysics. I wouldn't say Confucianism is less mystical than the other two religions. (I think part of the reason that we look at Confucianism as so restricted to mundanity is because the West sees it as being so. Fact is there are some pretty fantastic stuff in Confucianism too.) Please don't fall for the stereotype that Confucianism is only concerned with society -- in a reading of classical Confucianism you find very many metaphysical treastises such as those about Yin and Yang and the five elements.
Taoism is about balance just as much as Confucianism and Buddhism are -- hence I don't think that's enough of a unique categorization. I think the idea of naturalism is prominent -- although again not unique.
Buddhism is pacificist, but pacificism doesn't appear to be its unique feature; Confucianism and Daoism are also quite pacrificistic. If you want to have some kind of categorization to distinguish them, let me try this generalization: all three traditions consider things that are greater than or as great as the universe, and as small as the smallest particle, and they are all concerned with humanity and the world; their differences are in where they want to dwell: the Confucians seek perfection by staying in society and the natural world, Daoists seek transcendence by leaving society to return to nature, Buddhists seek salvation by ultimately leaving society and nature altogether. But Confucians also speculate about the universe, and the Taoists and Buddhist also care about society (Ch'an Buddhists believe in cultivating in everyday life,) and it's not merely that they have different emphasis, but that they have different goals where they eventually seek to rest.
Peace,
Michael
10-11-2004
From what you tell me, I think I must continue to look for that "Eastern Philosophies for Dummies" book that was recommended earlier, in order to get the full picture.
But what I really like is the final analogy that you gave me about the different "paths" they prefer in their concerns for the world, and everything in it. Thank you for giving me the basic idea of what I am looking at.
#28
MengTzu
-
- Entry Scholar (Xiucai)
-
- 2,105 posts
Emperor (Huangdi 皇帝)
-
Main Interest in CHF:
Chinese Philosophy
-
Specialisation / Expertise:
General Chinese Philosophy and Religion, Confucianism
Posted 12 October 2004 - 05:03 PM
Hey Han Chinese,
I wouldn't use Dummies for Eastern Philosophies as a reliable guide for a big picture either =P I mean, it should be helpful to sometimes, but try Fung Yu-lan's Short History of Chinese Philosophy. I think there's a longer Chinese version or something too. (Since it was written so long ago, it might be a bit outdated in some areas. But it should give a big picture.)
Peace,
Michael
10-12-2004
I wouldn't use Dummies for Eastern Philosophies as a reliable guide for a big picture either =P I mean, it should be helpful to sometimes, but try Fung Yu-lan's Short History of Chinese Philosophy. I think there's a longer Chinese version or something too. (Since it was written so long ago, it might be a bit outdated in some areas. But it should give a big picture.)
Peace,
Michael
10-12-2004
#29
TMPikachu
-
- CHF Grand Historian Award
-
- 2,542 posts
Emperor (Huangdi 皇帝)
Posted 17 October 2004 - 10:34 PM
I've found that oldish Roman philosophy is pretty similiar to 'Eastern' philosophy. The memoirs of Emperor... Marcus, I think, an exerp in the book 'The Origin of Satan'. His outlook on life/spirituality was oddly Buddhist
"the way has more than one name, and wise men have more than one method. Knowledge is such that it may suit all countries, so that all creatures may be saved..."
#30
Guest_IronMouse_*
Guest_IronMouse_*
-
- Guest
Posted 18 October 2004 - 08:30 PM
I've GOT Dummies for Eastern Philosophies and I say - it's NOT a useful resource for someone who is studying ANY eastern philosophy indepth.
1 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users
