223 replies to this topic

[TiYiJian]

I think that's quite bs...Who said southerners are mostly alchol intolerant?? Most People from Zhejiang can drink a lot...

[bloodmerchant]

I think that's quite bs...Who said southerners are mostly alchol intolerant?? Most People from Zhejiang can drink a lot...

People from Shaoxing are especially known to be excessive drinkers of liquor, amongst people from Zhejiang. And there are quite a lot of alcoholic foodstuffs from southern Jiangsu and Zhejiang (like drunken chicken, drunken crab, jiuniang, etc...)

The thing is, many people from other parts of China don't even consider people from southern Jiangsu and Zhejiang to be Southerners at all, even though the people there do think of themselves as Southerners. (Some Cantonese think that Jiangsu and Zhejiang are Northern China, which is hilarious)

Many people think Southern China is Guangdong and Fujian, not Zhejiang or Jiangsu. (Which is quite laughable)

It's funny because my family drinks excessively as well, contrary to the opinions of some people here.

Edited by bloodmerchant, 29 May 2010 - 10:47 PM.

[mohistManiac]

People from Shaoxing are especially known to be excessive drinkers of liquor, amongst people from Zhejiang. And there are quite a lot of alcoholic foodstuffs from southern Jiangsu and Zhejiang (like drunken chicken, drunken crab, jiuniang, etc...)

The thing is, many people from other parts of China don't even consider people from southern Jiangsu and Zhejiang to be Southerners at all, even though the people there do think of themselves as Southerners. (Some Cantonese think that Jiangsu and Zhejiang are Northern China, which is hilarious)

Many people think Southern China is Guangdong and Fujian, not Zhejiang or Jiangsu. (Which is quite laughable)

It's funny because my family drinks excessively as well, contrary to the opinions of some people here.

But there is an underlying logical point to all this. Guangdong people can't be arbitrarily mistaken for someone living in the interior they are on the coast and south at that but they can make the arbitrary decision that Jiangsu people which are near to Shangdong are quite possibly northerners and if they drink alcohol excessivly so much more for the stereotype. I suppose the same goes for far northeast peoples and they will think Shangdong is the barrier where the south begins. But your research suggests that bodies aren't arbitrary and it's been naturally decided that over half of asians can't drink excessively well, they'll keel over with esophageal cancer and those that aren't affected generally speaking within China are northerners.

[mohistManiac]

I think that's quite bs...Who said southerners are mostly alchol intolerant?? Most People from Zhejiang can drink a lot...

I doubt it, looking at this map.
http://www.biomedcen...re/F1?highres=y

The darker areas are shown to have more people carrying the mutated gene which allows for alcohol flush syndrome. Surprisingly this study is saying that the people of rice (southerners) having been the earliest practitioners of fermentation culture to make beer and other byproducts from rice have mutated into the environment which allows for positive selection of those that actually have "intolerance" for alcohol. I say "intolerance" because the new enzyme actually breaks down alcohol much more quickly leading to a severe accumulation of intermediary toxin byproducts which end up in the blood stream and causes the blushing reaction. It is ironic that the people who invented alcohol are least able to drink it, pleasurably that is.

From the site: http://www.biomedcen...1471-2148/10/15

Having established that the rice culture is likely the driving force of selection on the ADH1BArg47His polymorphism, the left question would be to explain the selective advantage of the ADH1B*47His allele. In southern China, people began to make fermented beverages long time ago. The potential benefits of having fermented beverage (or foods) can be explained by ethanol's combined analgesic, disinfectant and profound mind-altering effects[26]. In addition, fermentation helps to preserve and enhance the nutritional value of foods and beverages. Chemical analyses of ancient organics absorbed into pottery jars suggests that the earliest production of rice fermentation was carried out by the Neolithic people who lived in southern China about 9,000 years ago[6], not long after the origin of rice domestication in the same region. We believe that the custom could have prevailed rapidly among those early-agriculture populations in southern China during the Neolithic time, which have lasted thousands of years.

The ADH I has a low Km for ethanol, found in the liver, which metabolizes the most part of ethanol in the body. The derived ADH1B*47His allele is known to metabolize ethanol up to 100 times quicker than the ancestral ADH1B*47Arg allele, providing support that quick eradication of ethanol, and therefore lower local exposure should be protective. The recent case-control studies also suggested that the ADH1B*47His allele is the protective variant [27-30]. The higher metabolic rate of ADH1B*47His may also lead to the accumulation of the toxic aldehyde intermediate that has been commonly associated with the flushing phenotype[31]. An association study in Han Chinese indicates that the individuals carrying ADH1B*47His have the lowest risk for alcoholism[32]. It was suggested that the flushing phenotype is biochemically equivalent to the effects of disulfiram (a drug used to prevent relapse)[33], which can influence drinking behaviour as a way of protection from over consumption of alcohol. It can also protect against the damage to human bodies caused by alcohol consumptions.

[spacetraveler]

lets be honest here

- beijing

- hong kong

- shanghai

i found a lot of hong kong cantonese people to be ligther or even more eastern looking than a lot of those nrothenrs

from what i see. a lot of those cantonese have more of those stereotipcal northen features than those in beijing

stranger thing is. why are they even darker than sotuhern costal area chinese?

video dont lie, there's thousands of different passer bys

so the myth of nrothners are better lookign is totally a lie. i mean i dont spot too many attracitve people in the beijign video and i dotn fidn them specially of so called those mongoloid looks.


anyway. its totall embarrassign for some idiotic chinese here worshipping of thos emongol looks. totally disgusting and embarrassing..

Edited by spacetraveler, 03 January 2011 - 06:26 AM.

[bloodmerchant]

But there is an underlying logical point to all this. Guangdong people can't be arbitrarily mistaken for someone living in the interior they are on the coast and south at that but they can make the arbitrary decision that Jiangsu people which are near to Shangdong are quite possibly northerners and if they drink alcohol excessivly so much more for the stereotype. I suppose the same goes for far northeast peoples and they will think Shangdong is the barrier where the south begins. But your research suggests that bodies aren't arbitrary and it's been naturally decided that over half of asians can't drink excessively well, they'll keel over with esophageal cancer and those that aren't affected generally speaking within China are northerners.

I doubt it, looking at this map.
http://www.biomedcen...re/F1?highres=y

The darker areas are shown to have more people carrying the mutated gene which allows for alcohol flush syndrome. Surprisingly this study is saying that the people of rice (southerners) having been the earliest practitioners of fermentation culture to make beer and other byproducts from rice have mutated into the environment which allows for positive selection of those that actually have "intolerance" for alcohol. I say "intolerance" because the new enzyme actually breaks down alcohol much more quickly leading to a severe accumulation of intermediary toxin byproducts which end up in the blood stream and causes the blushing reaction. It is ironic that the people who invented alcohol are least able to drink it, pleasurably that is.

From the site: http://www.biomedcen...1471-2148/10/15

Maybe. But the idea is that much of the local cuisine of that particular region is not found in other regions of China, especially Northern China. And also, there tends to be more of a higher frequency of alcohol-related foodstuffs there than in other parts of China, referencing that map of yours.

Crabs, fish, chicken and all sorts of food were immersed in alcoholic spirits as a preservation method (though salting is not unheard of) in Eastern China (Zhejiang and Southern Jiangsu) for thousands of years. (Contrary, the norm in Northern China to preserve food was through salting or more often, pickling) The most well-known example being 醉雞 or drunken chicken, which has its origins in Zhejiang province. But traditionally, the norm was to consume alcohol with food, rather than just drinking it in the Western manner. It's not a true 'intolerance' for alcohol, it's the pathway in which how alcohol is digested allows for quicker, but inefficient digestion. Though there was a study in which consuming sugars or any type of carbohydrates along with alcohol actually goes through a separate pathway other than the typical ALDH pathway, though the researchers stated that it is quite unclear what type of pathway that is (since it was observed in mice). This also proves the previous argument that traditionally early fermentation-rice cultures often consumed alcohol with food (which still persists to the present day). So I think it's more of a genetic evolution through cultural practices, that these early rice fermentation cultures and their descendants evolved to use a separate alcohol digestion pathway.

Edited by bloodmerchant, 03 January 2011 - 07:22 PM.

[Andy Lau]

i think there isn't any relation between alcohol and regions of china, it's more based on the individual.

For example, as a Southern Han of Taishanese origin, my grandfather (from my father's side) loves alcohol alot and always drink hard-core drinks; an alcoholic. As for my father and me, we both don't like the taste of alcohol. I tried for 3 years and still don't like the taste of alcohol.

===================================================================================

What i find interesting is that Wen jiabao is originally from the Tianjin area but looks more like Southern Chinese.

Among the Northern Han Chinese, i do see 2 sets of looks:

1) Those who look like the other southern han chinese; moderate-sized eyes, oval-sized face and moderate body size.

2) While the other set looks like the Northern ethnic Minorities that live along the Mongolia/China border and Dongbei Region (Former Manchuria); really small eyes, big square face with big cheeks, and buff/strong body.

== Northern Han Chinese who look like Southern Chinese ==- Why is that ? Is set 1 the original Han ? or both sets ?

Wen jia bao[Tianjin] & Wang Lequan[Shandong] - both look Taishanese (no jokes!)





Regular citizens from Shaanxi province





Source: http://english.peopl...608_189154.html

Edited by Andy Lau, 04 January 2011 - 02:59 AM.

[spacetraveler]

i think there isn't any relation between alcohol and regions of china, it's more based on the individual.

For example, as a Southern Han of Taishanese origin, my grandfather (from my father's side) loves alcohol alot and always drink hard-core drinks; an alcoholic. As for my father and me, we both don't like the taste of alcohol. I tried for 3 years and still don't like the taste of alcohol.

===================================================================================

What i find interesting is that Wen jiabao is originally from the Tianjin area but looks more like Southern Chinese.

Among the Northern Han Chinese, i do see 2 sets of looks:

1) Those who look like the other southern han chinese; moderate-sized eyes, oval-sized face and moderate body size.

2) While the other set looks like the Northern ethnic Minorities that live along the Mongolia/China border and Dongbei Region (Former Manchuria); really small eyes, big square face with big cheeks, and buff/strong body.

== Northern Han Chinese who look like Southern Chinese ==

Wen jia bao[Tianjin] & Wang Lequan[Shandong] - both look Taishanese (no jokes!)





Regular citizens from Shaanxi province





Source: http://english.peopl...608_189154.html

stop embarrasin us. thats all i gotta say......

you have posted enough garbages in the last few years....im sick of you....and shame on you...your insecurity is really disturbing..

[Andy Lau]

spacetraveler has been bothering me through e-mail and now here. So annoying =.= Keeps on saying bad things against Cantonese people (and me) and through our e-mail discussions he keeps on insisting he is "Cantonese". From our e-mail discussions, you remind me of a former CHF member, DearCoolz (was banned a year ago) with his interests in genetics and making the same claims about Northern vs Southern Han.

The objective about forums is to be talking about issues related to the forum topic, not personaly attacking people =.= Please let's get back to the topics thanks!

But in this forum topic, spacetraveler seems to be more nicer about Cantonese people, congratz!

Edited by Andy Lau, 04 January 2011 - 03:33 AM.

[spacetraveler]

spacetraveler has been bothering me through e-mail and now here. So annoying =.= Keeps on saying bad things against Cantonese people (and me) and through our e-mail discussions he keeps on insisting he is "Cantonese". You remind me of a former CHF member, DearCoolz (was banned a year ago).

The objective about forums is to be talking about issues related to the forum topic, not personaly attacking people =.=

But in this forum topic, spacetraveler seems to be more nicer about Cantonese people, congratz!

havent i offered you to speak in collequial cantonese already? are you ok? enough is enough

i feel very embrrased by your comments as a cantonese....

lets chat in cantonese in pm?

[Andy Lau]

The main point, is to get back to the forum topic and stop personally attacking individuals =.= Don't send me anymore e-mails please! If you want to express your opinions about a subject (and not attack the CHF member personally), please do it here.

Back to the topic:

I don't think there isn't any relation between alcohol and regions of china, it's more based on the individual. Because my grand father (southern Han Chinese) is an alcoholic, while my dad and I are not really into alcohol.

In my opinion, among the northern chinese there are some that look like other southern Han Chinese. While among the Southern Chinese there is the same set that i explained earlier, plus a third set that includes those who look similar to other Southern China ethnic minorities, like the Zhuang and She. So what i think is that the original Han Chinese was already diverse since it's founding along the Yellow River and that both the present-day Northern and Southern Han Chinese are the "Original Han Chinese" from the Yellow River/Central Plains Regions.

Edited by Andy Lau, 04 January 2011 - 04:10 AM.

[mohistManiac]

Maybe. But the idea is that much of the local cuisine of that particular region is not found in other regions of China, especially Northern China. And also, there tends to be more of a higher frequency of alcohol-related foodstuffs there than in other parts of China, referencing that map of yours.

Crabs, fish, chicken and all sorts of food were immersed in alcoholic spirits as a preservation method (though salting is not unheard of) in Eastern China (Zhejiang and Southern Jiangsu) for thousands of years. (Contrary, the norm in Northern China to preserve food was through salting or more often, pickling) The most well-known example being 醉雞 or drunken chicken, which has its origins in Zhejiang province. But traditionally, the norm was to consume alcohol with food, rather than just drinking it in the Western manner. It's not a true 'intolerance' for alcohol, it's the pathway in which how alcohol is digested allows for quicker, but inefficient digestion. Though there was a study in which consuming sugars or any type of carbohydrates along with alcohol actually goes through a separate pathway other than the typical ALDH pathway, though the researchers stated that it is quite unclear what type of pathway that is (since it was observed in mice). This also proves the previous argument that traditionally early fermentation-rice cultures often consumed alcohol with food (which still persists to the present day). So I think it's more of a genetic evolution through cultural practices, that these early rice fermentation cultures and their descendants evolved to use a separate alcohol digestion pathway.

I think the map is just showing a careful field representation of where alchohol foodstuffs first originated from and how that ties into the percentages of people not being able to tolerate it. There would certainly be more the closer you get to the darkest area. It's a spread zone of people that have mutated to dislike the substance because theoretically it makes for poor selection in terms of a culture that has a lot of alcohol foodstuffs and likes getting drunk night after night. Over the ages the population spread and as a result perhaps as much as over 50 percent of people in Asia can't drink more than a shot of whatever they drink without blushing. It's a dominant gene I think as time passes only one parent would be needed to transmit the inability to handle alcohol regularly. Think about it there can't be a gene which tells you mentally "Hey it's time to stop drinking before you pass out and damage more brain cells just like last night." The only way a dominant mutation would arise is when someone whose body thinks it is poison has a total aversion to the substance rather than a pleasurable one and passes this unique trait on. I think it's similar to the trait which allows for a person to look in disgust at something like a spider rather than with pleasure because the spider could possibly be poisonous.

[mohistManiac]

The main point, is to get back to the forum topic and stop personally attacking individuals =.= Don't send me anymore e-mails please! If you want to express your opinions about a subject (and not attack the CHF member personally), please do it here.

Back to the topic:

I don't think there isn't any relation between alcohol and regions of china, it's more based on the individual. Because my grand father (southern Han Chinese) is an alcoholic, while my dad and I are not really into alcohol.

In my opinion, among the northern chinese there are some that look like other southern Han Chinese. While among the Southern Chinese there is the same set that i explained earlier, plus a third set that includes those who look similar to other Southern China ethnic minorities, like the Zhuang and She. So what i think is that the original Han Chinese was already diverse since it's founding along the Yellow River and that both the present-day Northern and Southern Han Chinese are the "Original Han Chinese" from the Yellow River/Central Plains Regions.

Your grandfather may only seem like an alcoholic in a mass population of people who don't like to drink but that is only what he seems. You perceive through comparison. Then again if he is able to drink without getting an allergic response then maybe he is not carrying the mutant gene which most (more than half) southerners are supposed to have and could afford to drink quite often. If your dad is not able to drink then obviously you won't be able to drink since the mutant gene is carried from generation to generation. Either way someone other than your grandfather could have carried the mutant gene. All it takes is one. I'm not an chemistry engineer so I'm not sure how this passing of genes technically works out but if true then it ought to definitely make sense that there exists places where non drinkers make up the heavy concentration of the population in certain parts of China and whose neighboring areas bear a gradually less heavy concentration.

[mrclub]

There is no more pure Han Chinese already. Everyone is mixed here and there

[bloodmerchant]

To be honest, I do drink and have not gotten an allergic response from actually drinking (except once; but that happened when there was no food around). My face turned bright burning red, and it felt warm to the touch. But I did an experiment for myself. I soaked my hand in a mixture of water and hand sanitizer (which contains about more than 60% alcohol) and I did receive some type of allergic reaction. My hand was swelling red from the exposure to the alcohol. On the contrary, I added juice (or any other such sweet beverage) to liquor and have received no classic symptoms of an alcohol flush reaction.

To reiterate, I actually think it's mostly habitual, occasional drinkers that make up the darker portions of the map, due to the stronger prevalence of alcohol in the local culture. Other cultures that have less exposure to alcohol since ancient times are in the lighter portions of the map. I wouldn't say it's a 'dislike', it's more of a mishandling of an alcohol digestion mechanism due to culturally engineered genetic evolution, as I've said before. Most people there wouldn't drink alcohol off the rocks or just have it with ice and/or water. They always often have to have food to consume along as they imbibe alcohol, just as there are many cultures that have drinking establishments that often serve food.


Alcohol flush reaction =/= Dislike of alcohol
Darker portions of the map =/= Less proportion of drinkers relative to population
Ligher portions of the map =/= More proportion of drinkers relative to population

Just because Guangdong is lighter than Zhejiang does not mean that people from Guangdong are heavier drinkers than people from Zhejiang.

Nevertheless, this map does show the probable origins of rice cultivation in East Asia.

There is no more pure Han Chinese already. Everyone is mixed here and there

This.

There is no such thing as 'pure Han Chinese'. Every Han Chinese, including myself, has had some non-Han ancestry. Same for ethnic minorities in China, most of them have a Han ancestor. Quite frankly, I don't care if I am 'pure Han' or not, at some point, all of the ancestors of all the modern Han Chinese in the world today were not Han themselves.

Edited by bloodmerchant, 05 January 2011 - 01:19 AM.