10 replies to this topic

[Howard Fu]

http://www.nytimes.c...r=1&oref=slogin

Ishmael is a big fan of Osama bin Laden.

``He is a hero,'' he said, stroking his beard. ``He is a good Muslim.''

Maybe not such a strange comment to hear from a Muslim in Iraq or Saudi Arabia, but Ishmael is a Chinese citizen who lives in the remote, northwestern province of Qinghai, in a country which is officially atheist and strictly controls religion.

With just over 20 million adherents, according to the government, there are as many Muslims in China as live in Syria, or Yemen, two predominantly Islamic countries.

And Islam is alive and well in western China.

Ishmael -- who, like many other Muslims in Qinghai, prefers using his Arabic name to the Chinese one stamped on his identity card -- is a student at an Islamic school attached to a mosque in Xining, the provincial capital.

There he learns Arabic and Persian, as well as studying the Koran and other Islamic teachings.

But politics is technically banned by law from being mentioned either in Ishmael's school or mosque.

A large blackboard near the entrance to the mosque, on the dusty outskirts of Xining, reminds worshippers of their duty to love the motherland and love the Communist Party as part of being a good Muslim, an admonition that riles some.

``The communists -- who are the Chinese -- are a godless people,'' said Ahmed, from eastern Qinghai, who like Ishmael belongs to the Hui minority, Chinese Muslims who trace their heritage back to the Middle East and central Asia.

That's a sentiment shared by Ishmael's hero, bin Laden, who in April slammed the Chinese as ``pagan Buddhists'' in an audiotape accusing the United Nations of being an ``infidel'' body.

MORE RELAXED

Yet despite the official controls on religion and politics, the government allows the Hui a great deal of autonomy and freedom in sparsely populated Qinghai and neighboring Gansu.

Although there may be occasional tensions, there is little parallel with the far-western region of Xinjiang, where there have been riots and bomb attacks by pro-independence groups.

``In places like Qinghai and Gansu, where Islam is less politicized, the government is more open and more relaxed,'' said Dru Gladney, professor of Asian Studies and Anthropology at the University of Hawaii.

``Particularly in very poor areas, there is a lot more flexibility,'' he said.

In many parts of China the Hui have blended in almost seamlessly into the predominant Han culture, all but abandoning Islam except for some traditions such as circumcising male children and avoiding pork.

In Qinghai, where around a fifth of the 5 million population follow Islam, Muslim women cover their heads, many restaurants refuse to let alcohol be consumed, and the men wear white skull caps and greet each other in Arabic.

A government ban on children under 18 attending Islamic schools in mosques is, in reality, usually ignored, local Muslims say.

PLUGGED IN

And they are well aware of what's going on in the wider Muslim world, even if they dare not risk the wrath of the Chinese security forces by protesting in the streets, and limit their political discussions to the home.

``We all listen to Voice of America and watch Al Jazeera here,'' said Noureddin, 23, recently returned from religious school in Saudi Arabia.

During the storm over the publishing of cartoons caricaturing the Prophet Mohammad, originally published by the Danish daily Jyllands-Posten last September, China's Muslims made barely a peep of protest.

``We knew about the cartoons and felt furious,'' said Mohammad, 26. ``But how could we go and demonstrate?''

Other times, though, tensions do bubble over.

At least seven people were killed and 42 injured in the central province of Henan in 2004 after a car accident involving an ethnic Han Chinese and a Hui sparked rioting.

In 1993, a cartoon ridiculing Muslims led to paramilitary police storming a mosque taken over by Hui in northwest China.

Some Han in Qinghai say they resent the province's Muslims for their wealth, but in the same breath will accuse them of petty theft. The Muslims say they resent the Han for their ethnic chauvinism and political domination.

Even within the Muslim community, there is unease between different sects and different ethnic groups who also follow the same religion, such as Qinghai's Salar minority and the Uighurs of restive Xinjiang.

``The Uighurs dance too much,'' said Ali, who belongs to the more conservative Ihwani sect which often looks to Saudi Arabia for guidance. ``We are different from them.''

[Centaur]

I wonder if the following article is truly representative of what is the current situation in China.

Since the People’s Republic of China was founded in 1949, tremendous upheavals occurred throughout China culminating in the Cultural Revolution. Muslims along with all the Chinese population suffered. After the third congress of the 11th Central committee, the government greatly liberalized its policies toward Islam and Muslims.. Since religious freedom was declared in 1978, the Chinese Muslims have not wasted time in expressing their convictions.

Under China's current leadership, in fact, Islam appears to be undergoing a modest revival. Religious leaders report more worshipers now than before the Cultural Revolution, and a reawakening of interest in religion among the young.

According to a publication on mosques in China(1998 edition), there are now 32,749 mosques in the entire People's Republic of China, with 23,000 in the province of Xinjiang. (for exact figures see Mosques in China. There has been an increased upsurge in Islamic expression in China, and many nationwide Islamic associations have been organized to coordinate inter-ethnic activities among Muslims. Islamic literature can be found quite easily and there are currently some eight different translations of the Qur'an in the Chinese language as well as translations in Uygur and the other Turkic languages.

Muslims have also gained a measure of toleration from other religious practices. In areas where Muslims are a majority, the breeding of pigs by non-Muslims is forbidden in deference to Islamic beliefs. Muslim communities are allowed separate cemeteries; Muslim couples may have their marriage consecrated by an imam; and Muslim workers are permitted holidays during major religious festivals.The Muslims of China have also been given almost unrestricted allowance to make the Hajj to Mecca. China's Muslims have also been active in the country's internal politics. As always, the Muslims have refused to be silenced. Islam is very much alive for China's Muslims who have managed to practice their faith, sometimes against great odds, since the seventh century.

Source: http://www.ehalal.ne...a/overview.html

And there another view from Arab News:

Editorial: Muslims in China
2 November 2004

The city of Xian, a major Islamic center for over 1,000 years, and the starting point of the famous Silk Road, was, for more than a decade, treated by Maoist zealots as enemy territory.

It is only in recent years that China has acknowledged the existence of Muslims among its citizens. But even then every effort is made to keep Muslims at bay. Official statistics put their number at around 10 million whereas most experts offer an estimate of 50 million. Muslims are discriminated against when it comes to the better jobs created since China’s conversion to economic capitalism. Muslims have virtually no presence in the ruling Communist Party that has been transformed into a political and business elite in recent years. And that means that one finds hardly any Muslim in the civil service or the leadership echelons of the armed forces. In areas such as the far west province of Xinjiang, or East Turkestan, where Muslims still form a majority, Beijing is trying to alter the demographic balance by bringing in large numbers of Han settlers. Restrictions are also imposed on the building of mosques, the creation of religious schools, and the training of Muslim religious leaders. The more radical Chinese leaders have seized upon the global trend in which Islam is often equated with violence and terrorism as an excuse for repressive policies vis-à-vis ordinary Muslim citizens.

The new Chinese ruling elite, although Communist by provenance if not by persuasion, has been intelligent enough to understand the inevitability of diversity in a large and multiethnic society. Mao’s nightmare of a dream to turn all citizens into robots waving his red book and singing his praises produced nothing but tragedy on an unprecedented scale. New China is blossoming because it has allowed a measure of economic liberty and diversity. It should go further and also allow religious, cultural, and ethnic freedom for all its citizens, including Muslims

Source: http://www.arabnews....d=2&m=11&y=2004

[Karakhan]

With just over 20 million adherents, according to the government, there are as many Muslims in China as live in Syria, or Yemen, two predominantly Islamic countries.

And Islam is alive and well in western China.

I believe that the 20 million figure was simply the sum of adding up all the national minorities that are generally regarded as Muslim (i.e Uighur, Hui, Salars, Dongxiang, Kazakh, etc). If we were to go into detail, there's no shortage of non-practicing Hui who continue to identify themselves as Hui simply to get benefits. Salars and Dongxiang are a bit more religious as a whole..but nomadic groups like Kazakhs and Kyrgyz are usually borderline Muslims as they were converted pretty recently compared to the other Muslim groups.

Yet despite the official controls on religion and politics, the government allows the Hui a great deal of autonomy and freedom in sparsely populated Qinghai and neighboring Gansu.

Although there may be occasional tensions, there is little parallel with the far-western region of Xinjiang, where there have been riots and bomb attacks by pro-independence groups.

``In places like Qinghai and Gansu, where Islam is less politicized, the government is more open and more relaxed,'' said Dru Gladney, professor of Asian Studies and Anthropology at the University of Hawaii.

``Particularly in very poor areas, there is a lot more flexibility,'' he said.

In many parts of China the Hui have blended in almost seamlessly into the predominant Han culture, all but abandoning Islam except for some traditions such as circumcising male children and avoiding pork.

I don't think the Hui are too much of a worry if that's what the author is implying. They've been one of the most patriotic peoples out there. Much of their revolts were around the Yuan and Qing whom they considered as outsiders.

And they are well aware of what's going on in the wider Muslim world, even if they dare not risk the wrath of the Chinese security forces by protesting in the streets, and limit their political discussions to the home.

``We all listen to Voice of America and watch Al Jazeera here,'' said Noureddin, 23, recently returned from religious school in Saudi Arabia.

During the storm over the publishing of cartoons caricaturing the Prophet Mohammad, originally published by the Danish daily Jyllands-Posten last September, China's Muslims made barely a peep of protest.

``We knew about the cartoons and felt furious,'' said Mohammad, 26. ``But how could we go and demonstrate?''

Im not too sure of what current circumstances they face if they protest..but in the past (around the late 80s)
there was a massive uproar when some one in China wrote the Chinese equivelent of Satanic Verses. A bunch of Muslims of varying ethnicity banded together and protested in Beijing. The Government gave into their demands and banned the book and burned existing ones. There wasn't too much publicity in the west because this was around the time of Tiananmen.

Other times, though, tensions do bubble over.

At least seven people were killed and 42 injured in the central province of Henan in 2004 after a car accident involving an ethnic Han Chinese and a Hui sparked rioting.

In 1993, a cartoon ridiculing Muslims led to paramilitary police storming a mosque taken over by Hui in northwest China.

Some Han in Qinghai say they resent the province's Muslims for their wealth, but in the same breath will accuse them of petty theft. The Muslims say they resent the Han for their ethnic chauvinism and political domination.

Even within the Muslim community, there is unease between different sects and different ethnic groups who also follow the same religion, such as Qinghai's Salar minority and the Uighurs of restive Xinjiang.

``The Uighurs dance too much,'' said Ali, who belongs to the more conservative Ihwani sect which often looks to Saudi Arabia for guidance. ``We are different from them.''

there's always going to be some ethnic tension/racism no matter what country. It also exists between the Muslim ethnicities i.e Uighurs vs Hui vs Kazakhs.. and also between different sects i.e Hui's who follow one brand of Sufism, and Hui's who follow a different one. These differences have escalated to the point where they would ridicule or even attack each other over these differences. Dress code also can vary.. they may all wear skull caps, but they differ.. i.e some are round.. some have 4 points, some have 8. Which usually denote which branch they are from.

[fcharton]

Some Han in Qinghai say they resent the province's Muslims for their wealth, but in the same breath will accuse them of petty theft. The Muslims say they resent the Han for their ethnic chauvinism and political domination.

This matches the impressions I had in Qinghai 15 years ago. Part of this situation results from history.

In Qinghai, the Hui traditionally were the merchants. Most restaurants and shops belonged to them. This situation stopped between 1950 and 1980, but in the late 80s, they reassumed their traditional position in society. In the early 90s, in Xining, the big Hui families were considered quite well off. Also, authorities had a deep mistrust towards them, which resulted from the fact that the local warlord (Ma Bufang) was a Hui. As such, very of them rose to high positions in the provincial government. I think the accusation of Han political domination comes from this.

As for the Han, one must be aware that the Han population of Qinghai (actually of the only densely populated region of the province, ie the valleys which range from Gansu to lake Qinghai) is very diverse.

First, there are the "original Hans of Qinghai". Local histories say they were sent there during the Ming and Qing. They used to blend well with the other minorities (Hui, Tibetans, and various ethnicities related to the Mongols), and their relations with the Hui, with whom they share a local dialect, are good. 15 years ago, the oldest of them would tell you of the years before 1950, the muslim warlords (who actually had conscripted most of them...), etc...

On the other hand, many Hans of Qinghai arrived there more recently, either through deportation between 1950 and 1975, or later, as migrants from neighbouring provinces. For them, living in Qinghai was not always a choice, most of them do not speak the dialect, and their relations with the "locals" (Han included) are a bit more tense. I would suppose that the situation did not improve as Qinghai did not benefit much from the recent development of China, and this probably reinforced the impression that the Hui "own everything", which was not completely mistaken 15 years ago.

François, who can't resist posting on Qinghai related threads

Edited by fcharton, 23 May 2006 - 06:35 PM.

[Karakhan]

As for the Han, one must be aware that the Han population of Qinghai (actually of the only densely populated region of the province, ie the valleys which range from Gansu to lake Qinghai) is very diverse.

First, there are the "original Hans of Qinghai". Local histories say they were sent there during the Ming and Qing. They used to blend well with the other minorities (Hui, Tibetans, and various ethnicities related to the Mongols), and their relations with the Hui, with whom they share a local dialect, are good. 15 years ago, the oldest of them would tell you of the years before 1950, the muslim warlords (who actually had conscripted most of them...), etc...

On the other hand, many Hans of Qinghai arrived there more recently, either through deportation between 1950 and 1975, or later, as migrants from neighbouring provinces. For them, living in Qinghai was not always a choice, most of them do not speak the dialect, and their relations with the "locals" (Han included) are a bit more tense. I would suppose that the situation did not improve as Qinghai did not benefit much from the recent development of China, and this probably reinforced the impression that the Hui "own everything", which was not completely mistaken 15 years ago.

That pretty much explains tensions in the southern half of Xinjiang too!

[Howard Fu]

And there another view from Arab News:

Editorial: Muslims in China
2 November 2004

The city of Xian, a major Islamic center for over 1,000 years, and the starting point of the famous Silk Road, was, for more than a decade, treated by Maoist zealots as enemy territory.

It is only in recent years that China has acknowledged the existence of Muslims among its citizens. But even then every effort is made to keep Muslims at bay. Official statistics put their number at around 10 million whereas most experts offer an estimate of 50 million. Muslims are discriminated against when it comes to the better jobs created since China’s conversion to economic capitalism. Muslims have virtually no presence in the ruling Communist Party that has been transformed into a political and business elite in recent years. And that means that one finds hardly any Muslim in the civil service or the leadership echelons of the armed forces. In areas such as the far west province of Xinjiang, or East Turkestan, where Muslims still form a majority, Beijing is trying to alter the demographic balance by bringing in large numbers of Han settlers. Restrictions are also imposed on the building of mosques, the creation of religious schools, and the training of Muslim religious leaders. The more radical Chinese leaders have seized upon the global trend in which Islam is often equated with violence and terrorism as an excuse for repressive policies vis-à-vis ordinary Muslim citizens.

The new Chinese ruling elite, although Communist by provenance if not by persuasion, has been intelligent enough to understand the inevitability of diversity in a large and multiethnic society. Mao’s nightmare of a dream to turn all citizens into robots waving his red book and singing his praises produced nothing but tragedy on an unprecedented scale. New China is blossoming because it has allowed a measure of economic liberty and diversity. It should go further and also allow religious, cultural, and ethnic freedom for all its citizens, including Muslims

Source: http://www.arabnews....d=2&m=11&y=2004

I'm afraid the second article is not very accurate. As Karakhan has said, many Han has converted to Hui for benifits. How could they do that if Muslim is discriminated? The government give subsidies and benificial policies to minorities. It's like 'If you are a Han poor, you recieve one share of aid. If you are a Muslim poor you get two share of aid. One for the poor, one for Muslim'. Another benefit is Minorities has score plus in college entrance examination. For a Manchu or Hui in Beijing, that only count for 5 points, but for minority in remote provinces that may count for 100 points. That's a big benefits. I heard people pay as much as 100,000 yuan to migrate to Xinjiang or Hainan just because the college entrance scores are lower there.

IMHO this is a wise policy. Although China has 56 ethnics officially, over 90% of them is Han. There are natural discrimination to the minorities in a society with one overwhelming ethnic, not neccesarily related to any chauvinism. Like African American in US or Muslim in Europe, although you can hardly find any discrimination against the minority in the law. The minorities in fact have less chance of education and job opportunity. The young people feel desperate and angry. This in turn strengthen the stereotype that the African American or Muslim are acadamically inability or violent, or the white are arrogant and chauvinism. I think China pretty much avoided this kind of problem. The percentile of minorities in colleges are well balanced. It would be a quite fresh idea to the company employers that they should or should not employ some one because he is or isn't a Han.

I don't think the Hui are too much of a worry if that's what the author is implying. They've been one of the most patriotic peoples out there. Much of their revolts were around the Yuan and Qing whom they considered as outsiders.

Just a few years ago, there are a violent protest of Hui in Tianjin. They attacked a police office and burned a police car. I heard it's because a policeman shot a Hui boy when pursuing a escaper. Of course, you can't get that kind of news in TV or newspaper. Many Han believe Hui are more violent than Han people. I think that's because they are aware they can get compramise from the government more easily. If Han do that kind of things, they will get crushed down and sent to prison. The Hui in Tianjin has given the police so much headache, I heard the government is seeking ways to dismember the Hui community now.

François, who can't resist posting on Qinghai related threads

Qinghai is pretty much neglected compared to Tibet and Xinjinag. I'm not aware Tibetan and Muslim are majorities in Qinghai before coming to this forum.

Edited by Howard Fu, 23 May 2006 - 11:58 PM.

[Karakhan]

Just a few years ago, there are a violent protest of Hui in Tianjin. They attacked a police office and burned a police car. I heard it's because a policeman shot a Hui boy when pursuing a escaper. Of course, you can't get that kind of news in TV or newspaper. Many Han believe Hui are more violent than Han people. I think that's because they are aware they can get compramise from the government more easily. If Han do that kind of things, they will get crushed down and sent to prison. The Hui in Tianjin has given the police so much headache, I heard the government is seeking ways to dismember the Hui community now.

Ah yeah I remember that in another forum. I think different Hui communities are integrated differently. I recall some of the Hui communities in the northern provinces were totally seperate from the Han communities. Where as elsewhere they are a bit more integrated with one another. I've no doubt that stereotypes exist between the Hui and others.. I remember two common Uighur stereotypes about the Hui:
-the Uighurs don't trust them because they are Hans. The Hans don't trust them because they're Muslim
-A group of Hui would remain very pious. Get only two of them together, one will ask the other to watch out for him as he eats pork. Get one alone, he will take off his skull cap and become Han.

On other areas of politics and Chinese Muslims. China was pretty active in cultivating the development of local mosques and culture in order to impress potential Middle-Eastern investors touring China. This was back in the 90s..but I'm pretty sure China remains active in courting the Islamic world.

[M.Ali Khan]

hello,

this is my first post here and i hope to make many more and learn much more. A quick question really but what is the current situation like vis a vis Hui/Muslim relations within China?..we always hear the problems but what really goes on?

thanks

[Sephodwyrm]

What really goes in the People's Republic is that they're trying to be a scientific secular government.

And they don't want to mess with religious fanaticism either.
So on one hand they have liberalized policies on religions and gives bonuses to cultural minoriies.
On the other, they tightly control how the religion is being spread. An open attack on the People's Republic would mean immediate arrest.

Btw, where are you from? Make an intro-post in the Introduction thread in the Imperial Court.

Edited by Sephodwyrm, 15 September 2006 - 03:44 PM.

[drauhtinon]

http://www.nytimes.c...amp;oref=slogin

Ishmael is a big fan of Osama bin Laden.

``He is a hero,'' he said, stroking his beard. ``He is a good Muslim.''

Maybe not such a strange comment to hear from a Muslim in Iraq or Saudi Arabia, but Ishmael is a Chinese citizen who lives in the remote, northwestern province of Qinghai, in a country which is officially atheist and strictly controls religion.

With just over 20 million adherents, according to the government, there are as many Muslims in China as live in Syria, or Yemen, two predominantly Islamic countries.

And Islam is alive and well in western China.

Ishmael -- who, like many other Muslims in Qinghai, prefers using his Arabic name to the Chinese one stamped on his identity card -- is a student at an Islamic school attached to a mosque in Xining, the provincial capital.

There he learns Arabic and Persian, as well as studying the Koran and other Islamic teachings.

But politics is technically banned by law from being mentioned either in Ishmael's school or mosque.

A large blackboard near the entrance to the mosque, on the dusty outskirts of Xining, reminds worshippers of their duty to love the motherland and love the Communist Party as part of being a good Muslim, an admonition that riles some.

``The communists -- who are the Chinese -- are a godless people,'' said Ahmed, from eastern Qinghai, who like Ishmael belongs to the Hui minority, Chinese Muslims who trace their heritage back to the Middle East and central Asia.

That's a sentiment shared by Ishmael's hero, bin Laden, who in April slammed the Chinese as ``pagan Buddhists'' in an audiotape accusing the United Nations of being an ``infidel'' body.

MORE RELAXED

Yet despite the official controls on religion and politics, the government allows the Hui a great deal of autonomy and freedom in sparsely populated Qinghai and neighboring Gansu.

Although there may be occasional tensions, there is little parallel with the far-western region of Xinjiang, where there have been riots and bomb attacks by pro-independence groups.

``In places like Qinghai and Gansu, where Islam is less politicized, the government is more open and more relaxed,'' said Dru Gladney, professor of Asian Studies and Anthropology at the University of Hawaii.

``Particularly in very poor areas, there is a lot more flexibility,'' he said.

In many parts of China the Hui have blended in almost seamlessly into the predominant Han culture, all but abandoning Islam except for some traditions such as circumcising male children and avoiding pork.

In Qinghai, where around a fifth of the 5 million population follow Islam, Muslim women cover their heads, many restaurants refuse to let alcohol be consumed, and the men wear white skull caps and greet each other in Arabic.

A government ban on children under 18 attending Islamic schools in mosques is, in reality, usually ignored, local Muslims say.

PLUGGED IN

And they are well aware of what's going on in the wider Muslim world, even if they dare not risk the wrath of the Chinese security forces by protesting in the streets, and limit their political discussions to the home.

``We all listen to Voice of America and watch Al Jazeera here,'' said Noureddin, 23, recently returned from religious school in Saudi Arabia.

During the storm over the publishing of cartoons caricaturing the Prophet Mohammad, originally published by the Danish daily Jyllands-Posten last September, China's Muslims made barely a peep of protest.

``We knew about the cartoons and felt furious,'' said Mohammad, 26. ``But how could we go and demonstrate?''

Other times, though, tensions do bubble over.

At least seven people were killed and 42 injured in the central province of Henan in 2004 after a car accident involving an ethnic Han Chinese and a Hui sparked rioting.

In 1993, a cartoon ridiculing Muslims led to paramilitary police storming a mosque taken over by Hui in northwest China.

Some Han in Qinghai say they resent the province's Muslims for their wealth, but in the same breath will accuse them of petty theft. The Muslims say they resent the Han for their ethnic chauvinism and political domination.

Even within the Muslim community, there is unease between different sects and different ethnic groups who also follow the same religion, such as Qinghai's Salar minority and the Uighurs of restive Xinjiang.

``The Uighurs dance too much,'' said Ali, who belongs to the more conservative Ihwani sect which often looks to Saudi Arabia for guidance. ``We are different from them.''

NY Times eh? Don't they just looove to pick one kid's statements and create stigma for the whole group? Very republican I must say..

[red_pr!nce]

Fanatics and radicals are everywhere in almost all societies in the world, including in Xinjiang. You can find Christian radicals, Chinese radicals, Islamic radicals, Latino radicals, etc. However, not all Moslems in Xinjiang is that conservative and hateful to non-Moslems. Most of them live in secular ways as the majority of Han people living in the country.

If we look back, for many centuries, the presence of Moslems were important for China itself to develop. Zheng He was a Moslem. He was also a Chinese from ethnic Hui. It was not a problem because his loyalty lies to the Ming Dynasty. It was the Turkish Moslems who "defended" the Chinese from Arabic Moslems' intrusion into the mainland.

I wonder how a statement of such Chinese Moslem could be connected with the global trend being ignited by the American neo-Conservative group. They divided the world between Moslems and non-Moslems through unilateral moves against some people who claimed to be Moslems. This friction began to rise up to the surface since the destruction of World Trade Center, the rise of Osama bin Laden, the invasion into Afghanistan, Iraq, and so on.