17 replies to this topic

[snowybeagle]

The first time the Han launched an offensive campaign against the XiongNu was under the leadership of Liu Bang. He was badly beaten, besieged and only managed to return safely by concluding a peace treaty with the XiongNu, establishing diplomatic relationship and arranging marriages of Han princesses to the XiongNu ruler.

The second time was during the reign of Emperor Wu of Han. With generals such as Li Guang, Wei Qing and Huo Qubing, they were largely successful against the XiongNu, but at an enormous financial and social cost to the Han Empire.

However, it was only during the Eastern Han that the Han seemed most successful against the XiongNu, going the furthest beyond the Han border than any Han army had ever done. The XiongNu too was never able to rise again as a major power, and fractured into north and south factions.

The northern faction eventually migrated, and their territories occupied by Xianbei tribes from their east. It was said that the Xiongnu remaining switched to adopt Xianbei identity to survive.

The southern faction submitted to the Han rule.

Would it be accurate to describe the campaigns of the Eastern Han to be more successful than the campaigns of the Western Han?

If so, what was the reason?

Was it the military of Eastern Han stronger than Western Han?
Or simply they had learned from past experience, and established better alliances with other northern powers against the XiongNu?

Or did the Eastern Han have better logistical supports?

Or was it because the XiongNu was repeatedly weakened since the Western Han?

[hanzi]

i would say the xiongnu is already weaken by the western han, i think they lost alot of the breeding spot for their warhorses from the western Han and nonetheless, Ban Chao of the Eastern Han didn't really conquer too many of the Xiongnu terrotories but he went into their terrotories and make up diplomatic relations with others states near Xiongnu, thus encircling them =d.

But intresting enough, many consider Eastern han to be much weaker than Western Han, yet in both times, they're rather successful in the military success in their early age.

[Xiaomu]

The Han-XiongNu wars can be considered as ONE war lasting hundreds of years, starting with Liu Bang and ended in Eastern Han. The strategies of Han in this war was set on an early stage actually.
During this wall XiongNu was weakened little by little.
It's difficult to say Eastern Han did beter than Western Han or not, because it was ONE SINGLE war, and (only) it ended in Eastern...

[snowybeagle]

Perhaps we should first look over the list of battles between the Western/Eastern Han and the XiongNu (匈奴).

I will be creating a list of major battles between the Han and XiongNu, which I think might need several posts.

Western Han

200 BC (10th month) 白登之战 Battle of BáiDēng : The first major clash between Han and XiongNu at the beginning of the Han's rule. Han badly underestimated the strength of the XiongNu and resulted in Liu Bang being besieged at BáiDēng. He survived only by arranging peace treaty with XiongNu and arranged for Han princess to marry XiongNu rulers, and agreed to establish the borders between Han and XiongNu along the Great Wall.

In the decades that followed, the Han Dynasty consolidated its hold over its empire, strengthening the central government, severely curtailing factional powers, saw great population increase and dramatic build-up of state reserves in terms of funds and food supplies.

The Han undertook measures to strengthen border defences, large-scale breeding of horses and stockpiling of supplies, and built a strong army. Despite several XiongNu raids into Han territories, there were no major wars between Han and XiongNu during this period.


133 BC 马邑之战 Battle of MăYì : Emperor Wŭ of Han (汉武帝) decided to terminate the friendly approach towards the XiongNu and commenced hostilities. Supreme Censor Hán ĀnGuó (御史大夫韩安国), General Lĭ Guăng (李广) and Gōngsūn Hè (公孙贺) were ordered to lead 300,000 troops agains the XiongNu. However their attempts to lure the 100,000 XiongNu at MăYì (present day Shuo county in Shanxi 山西朔县) failed when the XiongNu leader became suspicious at the absence of guards over large herds of livestocks. The XiongNu withdrew, and the 30,000 Han troops ambushing at Dài prefecture (代郡) under General Wáng Huī (王恢) and Lĭ Xī (李息) did not intervene due to the numbers of the XiongNu.


127BC 河南之战 Battle of HéNán (River South) : Han under General Wèi Qīng (卫青) scored a major victory over the XiongNu and deprived them from rich pastures in the region of HeTao (河套), present day Ordos city (鄂尔多斯市/伊克昭盟). The significance of this battle was that the Han actually secured their frontiers for the first time along the section of the Great Wall built by Meng Tian (蒙恬) from the Qin Dynasty, and shifted the border with XiongNu to the northern banks of the Yellow River.



124BC 漠南之战 Battle of MòNán (Desert South) : Following closely to the Battle of HéNán, the aftermath of this battle saw the communication links between XiongNu's left and right wings severed. It forced the XiongNu to retreat further north, and allowed the Han to consider a corridor to the western regions.


121BC 河西之战 Battle of HéXī (River West) : Following the retreat of the XiongNu northwards, the young general Huò QùBìng (霍去病) led an expedition to the northwest, routing remnants of the XiongNu and imposing Han overlordship over the tribes living west of the Yellow River. In 2 campaigns (spring and summer), the Han penetrated deeply into foreign territories, deprived the XiongNu of alliance of the Western Qiang tribes (西羌) and further isolated the XiongNu.


119 BC 漠北之战 Battle of MòBěi (Desert North) : This was the climax of the anti-XiongNu campaigns of Emperor Wŭ of Han. Confounding the XiongNu's belief that their opponents could not cross the desert, the Han army did just that and achieved victory a high cost, killing some 90,000 XiongNu. They reached as far as Lake Baikal in present day Russia.


After this, the exhausted Han took a long break from anti-XiongNu campaigns to recover their strength.

[Mei Houwang]

It was said that the number of men in logistics support actually outnumbered the number of fighting men in the Battle of Mobei. Does anyone know just by how much logistics support outnumbered them?

[Whsie]

I think it deals with the weakening of the Xiongnu. Xiongnu were constantly stronger that the early Han. Wen/Jin emperor strengthened the economy. Wu used the money+generals to severly weaken Xiongnu. And I think from that point on, Han would almost always have the edge.

[羽林遺孤]

At Mobei Campaign, Wei and Huo each led 50,000 man (mainly calvery) as the main force. They were supported by around 100,000 conscripts infantries (材官).


Note: 100,000 calvery probably meant that every single Han riders in the northern front joined this campaign. This was a good choice or bad idea; makes one wonders...

Edited by 羽林遺孤, 10 July 2006 - 09:46 PM.

[Howard Fu]

It was said that the number of men in logistics support actually outnumbered the number of fighting men in the Battle of Mobei. Does anyone know just by how much logistics support outnumbered them?

Didn't Huoqubing use a 'take food from the enemy'(因粮于敌) stragy?

[Wujiang]

Only in this campaign to capture Hexi.
During the battle of Mobei, because it was crossing the Gobi desert, that strategy was unfeasible

[snowybeagle]

Was it because there was some agriculture in Hexi while the rest were against purely nomadic herders?

[tadamson]

Was it because there was some agriculture in Hexi while the rest were against purely nomadic herders?

It should be remembered that the nomad culture always included some dispersed settled sites (even some fortified ones), though natruallly the occupants were seen by the nomads as a 'necessary part of the landscape' (a source of timber, etc) rather than 'proper people'.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

It was said that the number of men in logistics support actually outnumbered the number of fighting men in the Battle of Mobei. Does anyone know just by how much logistics support outnumbered them?

It was 500,000 that followed behind, though they never crossed the Gobi.

[Mei Houwang]

^Thx, can I know where you got that from? Not that I doubt you.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

I just rechecked Shi Ji, I made some error from my memory, it was 50,000 cavalry for Wei Qing and 50,000 for Huo Qu Bing, this was supplemented by 40,000 volunteer cavalry men who supplied their own food. So there was actually 140,000 forces on the camapign, with 70,000 led by each general(Shi Ji, biography of Xiongnu, chapter 110.)

This was followed by several hundred thousand infantry and supply lines. (Shi Ji, chapter 111 biography of Wei Qing and Huo Qu Bing.)

[Mei Houwang]

I just rechecked Shi Ji, I made some error from my memory, it was 50,000 cavalry for Wei Qing and 50,000 for Huo Qu Bing, this was supplemented by 40,000 volunteer cavalry men who supplied their own food. So there was actually 140,000 forces on the camapign, with 70,000 led by each general(Shi Ji, biography of Xiongnu, chapter 110.)

Thx, so I take it that Wei Qing led half of the volunteer cavalry while Huo Qu Bing led the other half?

Edit: Oh jeez, why do I even ask..?

Edited by Anthrophobia, 22 August 2006 - 10:26 PM.