498 replies to this topic

[orchid_dreams]

Did Taizu (太祖) and Gaozu (高祖) mean the same thing?
If so, why were there 2 terms for the same thing?
If not, what is the difference, and which is more senior?

Hm... somehow I don't agree with Rong Qin Wang.
From my knowledge (which is very limited), "Taizu" and "Gaozu" (and "Shizu" 世祖) are all commonly used for the first emperor that founded the dynasty. They have no ranks, are only a chosen because they suit the character of the emperor. eg. Tang Ai Zong (唐哀宗) was named thus because he lost his throne.

[Generic]

Why did people alway said China have 5,000 years of history?

If you included Shang dynasty (ca. 1766 BC - ca. 1050 BC), which we have direct archeological evidences for its existence it would be only be 3,782 years of history.

Even if you included Xia dynasy (2205 BC–1766 BC), which we have no direct archeological evidences for its existence, it would be only 4,211 years of history.


So isn't saying China have 5,000 years of history seems to stretch the truth little bit?

[Ashura]

Personally I'd never say Chinese has 5000 years of history. The number has no meaning at all.

[Rong Qin Wang]

Why did people alway said China have 5,000 years of history?

If you included Shang dynasty (ca. 1766 BC - ca. 1050 BC), which we have direct archeological evidences for its existence it would be only be 3,782 years of history.

Even if you included Xia dynasy (2205 BC–1766 BC), which we have no direct archeological evidences for its existence, it would be only 4,211 years of history.
So isn't saying China have 5,000 years of history seems to stretch the truth little bit?

Zunjing de Generic,

Hmm, I think Ashura has a really good point when stating that the saying “China has 5,000 years worth of history” is not very accurate and the number 5,000 has no meanings at all.

It seems to me that this was just an old saying, which had been passed on for probably several hundreds of years by now. Therefore, nobody really questioned the validity of this statement.

For example, I am Vietnamese and I have always heard that Vietnam has 4,000 years worth of history. I say this all the time without thinking. I will probably teach my children this exact same saying several years from now. Hehehe!

[Rong Qin Wang]

Did any other household (nobility, plutocrat, officials') besides royalty have eunuchs as household staff?

Zunjing de Snowybeagle Xian Sheng,

Hmm, I seriously hope that I am not too late in providing you with this information, but I have recently read a quite interesting article regarding eunuchs in Chinese History in CHF.

Here is the link for the article:

http://www.chinahist...p...=2521&st=30

Xie Xie,

[Rong Qin Wang]

Hm... somehow I don't agree with Rong Qin Wang.
From my knowledge (which is very limited), "Taizu" and "Gaozu" (and "Shizu" 世祖) are all commonly used for the first emperor that founded the dynasty. They have no ranks, are only a chosen because they suit the character of the emperor. eg. Tang Ai Zong (唐哀宗) was named thus because he lost his throne.

Zunjing de Orchid_Dreams,

Well, as I have stated earlier, I am just making my own assumption(s) here. Of course, there is a 50-50 possibility that I am incorrect.

Hmm, you are right; both Taizu and Gaozu were two very common temple names for founding Emperors. On the other hand, I don’t think Shizu was as popular. Or maybe it was more preferred by the conquest dynasties?

At first, I also thought that these temple names for founding Emperors did not really have a rank, but rather selected based on the suitability of each Emperor. However, after reading about the temple names of the 12 Qing Emperors, I am not too certain if that was the case. Nurhachi’s father was posthumously granted the temple name of Gaozu. Nurhachi received the temple name of Taizu since he founded the later Jin state. I believe Emperor Shun Zhi was conferred the temple name of Shizu because he completed the conquest of Beijing.

I assume the sequence of temple names also indicated an order of rank since it was considered unfilial to receive a temple name superior than your ancestors.

I really have no idea how accurate I am being; however, I am basing my assumptions on some given facts. I will be doomed if the book I have read has some false informations! Hehehe!

Xie Xie,

[orchid_dreams]

Zunjing de Orchid_Dreams,

Well, as I have stated earlier, I am just making my own assumption(s) here. Of course, there is a 50-50 possibility that I am incorrect.

Hmm, you are right; both Taizu and Gaozu were two very common temple names for founding Emperors. On the other hand, I don’t think Shizu was as popular. Or maybe it was more preferred by the conquest dynasties?

At first, I also thought that these temple names for founding Emperors did not really have a rank, but rather selected based on the suitability of each Emperor. However, after reading about the temple names of the 12 Qing Emperors, I am not too certain if that was the case. Nurhachi’s father was posthumously granted the temple name of Gaozu. Nurhachi received the temple name of Taizu since he founded the later Jin state. I believe Emperor Shun Zhi was conferred the temple name of Shizu because he completed the conquest of Beijing.

I assume the sequence of temple names also indicated an order of rank since it was considered unfilial to receive a temple name superior than your ancestors.

I really have no idea how accurate I am being; however, I am basing my assumptions on some given facts. I will be doomed if the book I have read has some false informations! Hehehe!

Xie Xie,

Yes, after the Tang dynasty the first emperors were mostly named "Taizu" as their temple name and the second emperors "Taizong", if changes occurred in the dyansty during the emperor's reign then the emperor is usually named as "Shizu". As for rankings in the names, the only type of rankings I can think of would be that the early emperors were named with "zu" and the later ones with "zong". I'm not sure if that's what you meant.

I also found a really good site on temple and posthumous titles, but unfortunately it's in Chinese:
http://www.wearechin...p?fid=3&id=2504

[Rong Qin Wang]

Yes, after the Tang dynasty the first emperors were mostly named "Taizu" as their temple name and the second emperors "Taizong", if changes occurred in the dyansty during the emperor's reign then the emperor is usually named as "Shizu". As for rankings in the names, the only type of rankings I can think of would be that the early emperors were named with "zu" and the later ones with "zong". I'm not sure if that's what you meant.

I also found a really good site on temple and posthumous titles, but unfortunately it's in Chinese:
http://www.wearechin...p?fid=3&id=2504

Zunjing de Orchid_Dreams,

After the Tang Dynasty, the first Emperor of each dynasty was most likely granted the temple name of “Taizu.” However, I am not so certain that the second Emperor of each dynasty was granted the temple name of “Taizong.” I am only aware of three situations; Tang Taizong, Song Taizong, and Qing Taizong. What do you mean by “if some changes occurred in the dynasty during the Emperor’s reign, then the Emperor himself would receive the temple name of “Shizu?” By saying “some changes,” were you referring to reforms or rebellions?

You are right; the founding Emperor of each dynasty was given the temple name with the suffix “Zu.” Meanwhile, latter Emperors were just granted the temple name with the suffix “Zong.” However, this was only half the point I am asking.

If you look at the order of the three Qing Emperors, who all received the temple name with the suffix “Zu,” then would not that indicate the degree of importance? Nurhachi’s father was granted the temple name of Gaozu. Grand Khan Nurhachi received the temple name of Taizu. Emperor Shun Zhi was given the temple name of Shizu. With that in mind, would not this imply that the order of ranking in descending order was as following; Gaozu, Taizu, Shizu?

Yeah, it really sucks that the really cool website you have just posted is only in Chinese. Maybe a kind soul can translate it for people who are illiterate in Chinese like myself.

Xie Xie,

[orchid_dreams]

After the Tang Dynasty, the first Emperor of each dynasty was most likely granted the temple name of “Taizu.” However, I am not so certain that the second Emperor of each dynasty was granted the temple name of “Taizong.” I am only aware of three situations; Tang Taizong, Song Taizong, and Qing Taizong. What do you mean by “if some changes occurred in the dynasty during the Emperor’s reign, then the Emperor himself would receive the temple name of “Shizu?” By saying “some changes,” were you referring to reforms or rebellions?

Like what you meant -- when there is a rebellion or conquest. ie your example of emperor Shun Zhi, Beijing was conquered during his reign therefore he was named as "Shizu".

I'll attempt translating the page into English although I really think someone more advanced in translating should do it to give a better understanding.

[orchid_dreams]

Translated from http://www.wearechin...p?fid=3&id=2504

Temple name is the name given to a Chinese emperor after he has died. Most people believe the use of Temple names begun in the Shang dynasty, eg Tai Jia was named as "Taizong", Tai Wu was named as "Zhongzong" and Wu Ding as "Gaozong" (and some believe Cheng Shang--the first emperor in the Shang dynasty, was "Taizu"). In the begining Temple names were really strict, following the rule that "zu" has to have outstanding achievements and "zong" has to have virtue, the emperor(s) that founded the dynasty is nomally a "zu" and the succeeding emperors must be good with managing the affairs with the country to receive a Temple name of "zong".

In the Zhou dynasty, Posthumous titles were established and Temple names were abolished. Until the Qin dynasty, Posthumous titles were abolished as well.

Since the Han dynasty, Temple names were adopted again. The Han dynasty was very strict with giving Temple names, many emperors did not even receive a Temple name. Liu Bang founded the Han dynasty and therefore was given the Temple name of "Taizu" (but since the time of Sima Qian he was called as "Gaozu" which is why he is also well-known in this name as well), and received the Posthumous title of "Emperor Gao".

When it reached the Tang dynasty, other than some emperors that were short-lived or who lost their throne, most emperors have a Temple name.

Temple names often use the words "zu" and/or "zong". Emperors who founded the state are usually called "Taizu" or "Gaozu". eg Han Taizu, Tang Gaozu, Song Taizu. The Later emperors were normally "zong's", eg Tang Taizong, Song Taizong, etc.

When addressing an emperor, the Temple name is in front of the Posthumous title. Before the Tang dynasty, most emperors were known by their Posthumous title, eg Han Wudi, Sui Yangdi, but not their Temple names. But after the Tang dynasty, because of the lengthening of Posthumous titles, emperors were addressed by their Temple names, eg Tang Taizong, Song Taizu.

Normally, the choice of words in the Temple names were not chosen as the way Posthumous titles are choosed, but still are chosen from words with nice meanings. For example Tai(太), Shi(世), Gao(高), Shen(神), Ren(仁), Sheng(圣), Rui(睿), Ming(明), etc. Since the Tang dynasty, the dyasty's founding emperor(s) were usually called "Taizu" and the second generation named "Taizong". If a rebellion or conquest occurred during the reign of the emperor, his Temple name is normally "Shizu" or "Shizong". But this is not a rule.


--------------------
It's too long to translate in one day, I shall type up some more tomorrow.

[orchid_dreams]

(carried on from yesterday)

-----------------------------

Posthumous title:
Posthumous titles are names given to Chinese emperors, leuds and ministers after they've died. Based on their achievements in their lives and their character, a title is chosen to priase or disparage them. In ancient times, other than emperors, ministers and scholars can also recieve a "posthumous title". eg Yue Wumu (Yue Fei) and Tao Jingjie (Tao Yuanming).

The emperor has the power to give Posthumous titles to other people. From Western Han to the end of the Qing dynasty, the are 10473 imperial clansman and officials who received a posthumous title, and the Ming dynasty by itself had 5935 people. The emperor's Posthumous title is normally chosen by "ceremonial officials" (礼官).

Types of Posthumous titles:
In the beginning, there were only "praising posthumous titles", but no "disparage posthumous titles". There was a rule for choosing words for Posthumous titles, the rules contains words with fixed meanings, the types are listed below:

"Shang shi" (top posthumous title)
It is a praising Posthumous title. For example "wen" (文) means having the virtues of diligentness or knowledgableness, "kang" (康) means being close with the people, "ping" (平) means just with the law, etc.

"Xia shi" (lower posthumous title)
This ia criticizing title. eg "yang" (炀) means that the emperor abandoned courtesy, "li" (厉) means that the emperor was cruel and that he has killed many innocent people, "huang" (荒) means he liked entertainments and was slack with governing the country, etc.

"Zhong shi" (middle posthumous title)
Normally for sympathy. For example "min" (愍) means suffering in hardships, "huai" (怀) means he was kind and/or short-lived.

"Si shi" (personal/unofficial posthumous title)
This is for famous scholars and officals who was given a posthumous name by their relatives or pupils.

[Yun]

So isn't saying China have 5,000 years of history seems to stretch the truth little bit?

The reason for "5,000 years" is because it is common to begin Chinese history with Huangdi, who is believed to have lived around 3,000-2,900 BC, even though there is no archaeological evidence for his existence.

In fact, I recently saw a proposal to extend the length of Chinese history to 6,500 years, starting from the legendary sage-king Fuxi, in order to make Chinese civilization earlier than the Mesopotamian (5,000+ years ago) and Indian (5,000 years ago) civilizations, and equal in age to the Egyptian (6,000+ years ago) civilization.

I would recommend these three threads: http://www.chinahist...showtopic=10669
http://www.chinahist...p;hl=5000 years
http://www.chinahist...showtopic=11156

[naruwan]

what for? the egyptions and mesopotamian history have archaeological evidence to support dating back to that period of time. going for 5000 years is already streching it, going to Fuxi then i might as well just believe the Coreans invented everything.

[Yun]

what for?

For nationalistic pride. In the article that I read, the writer said that those Western scholars who saw Chinese civilization as starting only from the Shang dynasty were "biased against China". There was even a scholar quoted who said Chinese civilization starts from the adoption of sedentary agriculture in China 10,000 years ago, and "we have lots of artifacts to prove it, and don't need other people to prove it for us." Another scholar said that China as a state (guojia) has 5,000 years of history (starting from Huangdi), while China as a civilization (wenming) has 10,000 years of history.

I think the problem here is the difference between "5,000 years of history" and "5,000 years of civilization". Neither phrase is appropriate: there are less than 5,000 years of reliable recorded history in China (unless you think Sima Qian's records of Huangdi and other texts' accounts of Fuxi/Nuwa/Shennong etc. are reliable), while prehistoric agriculture in China probably began more than 5,000 years ago if that is taken as the criterion for civilization. But then, another important criterion for civilization is a writing system, and no evidence of a writing system before the Shang dynasty has yet been found. And saying that China as a state has thousands of years of history makes the fallacious assumption that the PRC today is exactly the same state as Huangdi's kingdom or the Xia kingdom, just under a different government.

So I think the "5,000" figure simply is not useful at all.

Any further discussion of this issue should be done on any of the three threads I linked above, so that the discussion can stay focused. This thread that we are using now is a multi-purpose one and it is rather hard to go in-depth here.

[Rong Qin Wang]

(carried on from yesterday)

-----------------------------

Posthumous title:
Posthumous titles are names given to Chinese emperors, leuds and ministers after they've died. Based on their achievements in their lives and their character, a title is chosen to priase or disparage them. In ancient times, other than emperors, ministers and scholars can also recieve a "posthumous title". eg Yue Wumu (Yue Fei) and Tao Jingjie (Tao Yuanming).

The emperor has the power to give Posthumous titles to other people. From Western Han to the end of the Qing dynasty, the are 10473 imperial clansman and officials who received a posthumous title, and the Ming dynasty by itself had 5935 people. The emperor's Posthumous title is normally chosen by "ceremonial officials" (礼官).

Types of Posthumous titles:
In the beginning, there were only "praising posthumous titles", but no "disparage posthumous titles". There was a rule for choosing words for Posthumous titles, the rules contains words with fixed meanings, the types are listed below:

"Shang shi" (top posthumous title)
It is a praising Posthumous title. For example "wen" (文) means having the virtues of diligentness or knowledgableness, "kang" (康) means being close with the people, "ping" (平) means just with the law, etc.

"Xia shi" (lower posthumous title)
This ia criticizing title. eg "yang" (炀) means that the emperor abandoned courtesy, "li" (厉) means that the emperor was cruel and that he has killed many innocent people, "huang" (荒) means he liked entertainments and was slack with governing the country, etc.

"Zhong shi" (middle posthumous title)
Normally for sympathy. For example "min" (愍) means suffering in hardships, "huai" (怀) means he was kind and/or short-lived.

"Si shi" (personal/unofficial posthumous title)
This is for famous scholars and officals who was given a posthumous name by their relatives or pupils.

Zunjing de Orchid_Dreams,

First and foremost, I would like to thank you very much for taking your precious time to translate this article for people who are illiterate! This sincere thank you is coming from me, but speaking for everyone.

Well, Emperor Shun Zhi never really conquered Beijing himself since he was only six years old then. It was his uncle, Prince Dorgon, who completed the conquest of Beijing and acted as the de factor ruler of the new Qing Empire. It is rather odd that the first Qing Emperor to occupy Beijing was only six years old at that time. Hehehe!

Regarding the article, it has a lot of interesting points. It explains the complicated naming conventions better than most articles.

I have just learned from it that temple names came into existence at the beginning of the Shang Dynasty. However, the term “Huang Di” did not exist until Qin Shi Huang’s time. So, I am assuming the Emperors were referred to as X or Y Zu or Zong Wang? During the Shang Dynasty, was it customary for kings to receive temple names? Or was it that only accomplished kings received temple names?

Yeah, during the Zhou Dynasty, not only kings, but also high ranking nobles were conferred with a posthumous name.

There were no posthumous or temple names during the Qin Dynasty because it was deemed unacceptable by Qin Shi Huang for descendants to make judgments on their ancestors’ characters or deeds. During the Qin Dynasty, Emperors were known by their rank as Emperors; first Emperor, second Emperor, or third Emperor. Ironically, Qin Shi Huang initially intended for his Empire to last for a very long time; however, it collapsed within four years of his death.

Were there any particular reasons why many Han Emperors did not receive a temple name? Was it because they were not qualified? Hmm, Liu Bang did receive the temple name of Taizu? Why did his temple name change from Taizu to Gaozu when Sima Qian compiled the first complete form of historical records? It does not really make much sense for a historian to change the temple name of a founding Emperor without some logical explanations.

Starting with the Tang Dynasty, all Emperors were known by their temple name; hence, I assume that everyone had a temple name.

Hmm, Emperor Yong Zheng received the temple name of Shizong; however, I don’t recall having any rebellions or conquests during his reign.

I surmise the ultimate difference between temple and posthumous names is that temple names are reserved for Emperors only, while posthumous names can be granted to Emperors, Empresses, and various ranking officials.

I guess just because someone was conferred with a posthumous name, it does not mean that the name will always have a positive denotations.

Again, thank you very much for taking your time to translate this article; we all appreciate it!

Xie Xie,