495 replies to this topic

[galvatron prime]

I have a silly question to ask ,are the mongol people too use lunar calender to celebrate they festival like naddam ,are mongol people too celebrate chinese new year like the vietnam and korea do ,thank you .

Edited by galvatron, 10 November 2006 - 09:16 AM.

[Sephodwyrm]

There is a huge ranking system for the harem.
A self-running hierarchy complete with multiple ranks and varying numbers.

Zhou Dynasty, the Etiquettes dictate for the Son of Heaven
1 Empress
3 Fu Ren
9 Bing
27 Shi Fu
81 Yu Qi

Han Dynasty, reign of Emperor Yuan
The Empress, Huang Hou, is the head of the Rear Palace.
Zhao YI
Jie Hao
Jing E
Rong Hua
Mei Ren
Ba Zi
Chong YI
Qu Zu
Liang Ren
Chang Shi
Shao Shi
Wu Guan
Shun Chang
Wu Juan

The following dynasties would change the numbers of ranks. East Han only has 4 ranks after the Empress, but the succeeding Wei has 12.

[orchid_dreams]

There is a huge ranking system for the harem.
A self-running hierarchy complete with multiple ranks and varying numbers.

Zhou Dynasty, the Etiquettes dictate for the Son of Heaven
1 Empress
3 Fu Ren
9 Bing
27 Shi Fu
81 Yu Qi

Han Dynasty, reign of Emperor Yuan
The Empress, Huang Hou, is the head of the Rear Palace.
Zhao YI
Jie Hao
Jing E
Rong Hua
Mei Ren
Ba Zi
Chong YI
Qu Zu
Liang Ren
Chang Shi
Shao Shi
Wu Guan
Shun Chang
Wu Juan

The following dynasties would change the numbers of ranks. East Han only has 4 ranks after the Empress, but the succeeding Wei has 12.

I'll just carry this on...

titles of concubines in the Qing dynasty
Empress (Huang Hou) 1 person
Huang Gui Fei 1 person
Gui Fei 2 people
Fei 4 people
Pin 6 people
Gui Ren
Chang Zai
Da Ying

[Rong Qin Wang]

I'll just carry this on...

titles of concubines in the Qing dynasty
Empress (Huang Hou) 1 person
Huang Gui Fei 1 person
Gui Fei 2 people
Fei 4 people
Bin 6 people
Gui Ren
Chang Zai
Da Ying

Zunjing de Sephodwyrm, Orchid_Dreams,

Thank you so much for answering my silly questions, and providing me with some very useful examples as well. Yeah, I have always thought that concubine was a word meaning not the first wife of an Emperor. Now I know that it is just a word meaning second wife in general.

You guys have provided some really interesting lists regarding concubines with various ranks during different Emperor’s reigns. May I ask if there are any books regarding this topic in English? I am really hoping to find some books in English with all the various ranking concubines’ titles, with the privileges and favors given to them by the Emperors. I have also realized that the Imperial Harem structure differed greatly among each dynasty. So, it would be great to read books with this much diversities.

Uh, I have another burning question. Empress Dugu was pretty famous for keeping her husband, Sui Wendi, on a short leash. In fact, he had two concubines only after her death. So, does anyone know the harem structure of Sui Dynasty? I know Sui Wendi only had a few concubines, but his son, Sui Yangdi, probably had more than the regular number, 3,000 concubines.

Xie Xie,

[orchid_dreams]

Zunjing de Sephodwyrm, Orchid_Dreams,

Thank you so much for answering my silly questions, and providing me with some very useful examples as well. Yeah, I have always thought that concubine was a word meaning not the first wife of an Emperor. Now I know that it is just a word meaning second wife in general.

You guys have provided some really interesting lists regarding concubines with various ranks during different Emperor’s reigns. May I ask if there are any books regarding this topic in English? I am really hoping to find some books in English with all the various ranking concubines’ titles, with the privileges and favors given to them by the Emperors. I have also realized that the Imperial Harem structure differed greatly among each dynasty. So, it would be great to read books with this much diversities.

Uh, I have another burning question. Empress Dugu was pretty famous for keeping her husband, Sui Wendi, on a short leash. In fact, he had two concubines only after her death. So, does anyone know the harem structure of Sui Dynasty? I know Sui Wendi only had a few concubines, but his son, Sui Yangdi, probably had more than the regular number, 3,000 concubines.

Xie Xie,

周禮》記載王者立后、三夫人、九嬪、二十七世婦、八十一御妻，共計一百二十一人，每人掌不同職務，如后為後宮之主，夫人主管婦禮，九嬪主管四德，世婦主管喪祭賓客，御妻則主管王燕寢之事。

西漢時后妃位號由上而下：
昭儀﹝元帝時立﹞、婕妤﹝武帝時立﹞、娙娥、容華、美人、八子、充依、七子、良人、長使、少使、五官、順常，以及最後一級﹝名號繁多，包括無涓、共和、娛靈、保林、良使、夜者﹞，共十四級。

東漢開國，刪減後宮人數及級別，只有貴人、美人、宮人、采女等幾個級別。人數不定，但後來至桓、靈二帝時後宮女子達二萬人。



魏晉時期曹魏宮制大概是這樣：
夫人、貴嬪同級，然後是淑妃﹝明帝立﹞、淑媛、昭儀、昭華﹝明帝立﹞、修容、修儀﹝明帝立﹞、婕妤、容華、美人及良人。

晉朝則仿傚曹魏建立後宮制度：
貴嬪、夫人、貴人為三夫人，淑妃、淑媛、淑儀、修華、修容、修儀、婕妤、容華、充華為九嬪。

南北朝時南朝宋齊梁陳皆承晉制，但名稱略有變更。

北朝拓跋魏後宮簡樸，只設夫人，不論數目多少。孝文帝漢化政策同時改革後宮，以後宮位號與官員名稱相對。

北齊初有夫人、嬪、御，至武成帝設左右昭儀於眾妃嬪之上，後主又設左右娥英於昭儀之上。

北周初只設五夫人，但後來宣帝無道，五后並立，後宮位號多不勝數。


隋朝初因文帝獨孤后性妒，後宮並無妃嬪。直至獨孤后死後，文帝才設貴妃、淑妃、德妃為三夫人，順儀、順容、順華、修儀、修容、修華、充儀、充容、充華為九嬪，美人、才人為二十七世婦，寶林、御女、采女為八十一御妻。

五代更迭頻繁，後宮並無確立體制。

唐朝
皇后.
四夫人:貴妃,淑妃,德妃,賢妃(以上正一品)
九嬪:昭儀,昭容,昭媛,修儀,修容,修媛,充儀,充容,充媛(以上正二品)
二十七世婦:婕妤九人(正三品),美人九人(正四品),才人九人(正五品)
八十一御妻:寶林二十七人(正六品),御女二十七人(正七品),綵女二十七人(正八品)
正一品相當於宰相高位.這些有地位的嬪妃,當然還有許多隨侍的女官,宮女,針黹婦,雜役等,加上負責後宮炊事用度的宮女,數目非常龐大.另外還有一些女人做不來的繁難工作,則由擔任下述職務的宦官負責.

宋朝立，沿唐制，設四妃、九嬪、婕妤、美人、才人等等。真宗、仁宗在位時，把九嬪擴充至十七人，分別為太儀、貴儀、淑儀、淑容、順儀、順容、婉儀、婉容、昭儀、昭容、昭媛、修儀、修容、修媛、充儀、充容、充媛。仁宗又在妃級別中增一位號名宸妃。

元朝只設后、妃、嬪三等，但人數不定。



明朝後宮仍設貴妃、妃、嬪等人，名號則與前代有所不同，有賢、淑、莊、敬、惠、順、康、寧等等。後宮亦無特定體制，「皇」字亦不只限於皇貴妃一級。

清初皇太極稱帝，立五宮后妃，為清寧宮皇后，關睢宮宸妃，麟趾宮貴妃，衍慶宮淑妃及永福宮莊妃。順治時沒沿用此制，至康熙時後宮制度才完全確立，設皇貴妃一人，貴妃二人，妃四人，嬪六人，貴人、常在、答應並無限定之數

This is the full info on the harem for emperors in all of the dynasties in China. I'll translate them when I get time (homework comes first... lol).

[Yun]

I'll translate the Sui passage first, to answer LKMG's question:

隋朝初因文帝獨孤后性妒，後宮並無妃嬪。直至獨孤后死後，文帝才設貴妃、淑妃、德妃為三夫人，順儀、順容、順華、修儀、修容、修華、充儀、充容、充華為九嬪，美人、才人為二十七世婦，寶林、御女、采女為八十一御妻。

Translation: There were no imperial concubines in the early Sui, because of Empress Dugu's jealous nature. Only after the Empress died did Sui Wendi establish a harem consisting of the 3 Furen (holding ranks of Guifei, Shufei, and Defei), 9 Pin (holding ranks of Shunyi, Shunrong, Shunhua, Xiuyi, Xiurong, Xiuhua, Chongyi, Chongrong, and Chonghua), 27 Shifu (holding ranks of either Meiren or Cairen), and 81 Yuqi (holding ranks of Baolin, Yunu, or Cainu).

That adds up to 120 concubines for Sui Wendi. The system of 3, 9, 27, 81 (increasing by multiples of 3) was following exactly the archaic Rites of Zhou 周禮 harem structure described by Sephodwyrm, which is quite interesting since the Zhou structure was not strictly followed even by the Han.

[orchid_dreams]

Syphedwyrm has already done the Zhou and Han dynasties so I will start from the Wei-Jin period:

Wei-Jin
Fu Ren / Gui Pin
Shu Fei (began with Ming Di)
Shu Yuan
Zhao Yi
Zhao Hua (began with Ming Di)
Xiu Rong
Xiu Yi (began with Ming Di)
Jie Yu
Rong Hua
Mei Ren
Liang Ren

Jin
Gui Pin
Fu Ren
Gui Ren (these three are called the "three ladies"
Shu Fei
Shu Yuan
Shu Yi
Xiu Hua
Xiu Rong
Xiu Yi
Jie Yu
Rong Hua
Chong Hua (the above nine are called the "nine concubines"

Northern Qi
left and right E Ying (began by Hou Zhu)
left and right Zhao Yi (began with Wu Di)
Fu Ren
Pin
Yu

Northern Zhou
the five ladies

Sui
(no concubines)
Gui Fei
Shu Fei
De Fei (three ladies)
Shun Yi
Shun Rong
Shun Hua
Xiu Yi
Xiu Rong
Xiu Hua
Chong Yi
Chong Rong
Chong Hua (nine concubines)
Mei Ren
Cai Ren (twenty-seven women)
Bao Lin
Yu Nv
Cai Nv (eighty-one imperial wives)
(by Wen Di after his empress died)

still to come...

[orchid_dreams]

Tang
Empress
Gui Fei
Shu Fei
De Fei
Xian Fei (the four ladies, all first rank)
Zhao Yi
Zhao Rong
Zhao Yuang
Xiu Yi
Xiu Rong
Xiu Yuang
Chong Yi
Chong Rong
Chong Yuan (the nine concubines, all second rank)
Jie Yu (nine people, third rank)
Mei Ren (nine people, fourth rank)
Cai Ren (nine people, fifth rank) (the twenty-seven women)
Bao Lin (twenty-seven people, sixth rank)
Yu Nv (twenty-seven people, seventh rank)
Cai Nv (twenty-seven people, eighth rank) (the eighty-one imperial wives)

Song
follows the Tang harem

Ming
still had Gui Fei, Fei, Pin, etc. But had different names in front of the titles, such as Xian, Shu, Zhuang, Jing, Hui, Shun, Kang, Ning, etc.

and Qing I've written already.

[Yun]

Note that 嬪 is pronounced as Pin, not Bin or Bing.

Also that Orchid Dreams is translating Furen 夫人 as Ladies, Pin 嬪 as Concubines, Shifu 世婦 as Women, and Yuqi 御妻 as Imperial Wives.

[orchid_dreams]

Note that 嬪 is pronounced as Pin, not Bin or Bing.

oh, that was my fault, typing error, lol.

[Rong Qin Wang]

I'll translate the Sui passage first, to answer LKMG's question:

隋朝初因文帝獨孤后性妒，後宮並無妃嬪。直至獨孤后死後，文帝才設貴妃、淑妃、德妃為三夫人，順儀、順容、順華、修儀、修容、修華、充儀、充容、充華為九嬪，美人、才人為二十七世婦，寶林、御女、采女為八十一御妻。

Translation: There were no imperial concubines in the early Sui, because of Empress Dugu's jealous nature. Only after the Empress died did Sui Wendi establish a harem consisting of the 3 Furen (holding ranks of Guifei, Shufei, and Defei), 9 Pin (holding ranks of Shunyi, Shunrong, Shunhua, Xiuyi, Xiurong, Xiuhua, Chongyi, Chongrong, and Chonghua), 27 Shifu (holding ranks of either Meiren or Cairen), and 81 Yuqi (holding ranks of Baolin, Yunu, or Cainu).

That adds up to 120 concubines for Sui Wendi. The system of 3, 9, 27, 81 (increasing by multiples of 3) was following exactly the archaic Rites of Zhou 周禮 harem structure described by Sephodwyrm, which is quite interesting since the Zhou structure was not strictly followed even by the Han.

Zunjing de Yun the Sage-King, Orchid_Dreams,

Thank you so much for taking your time to translate these for me; I greatly appreciate it!

Hmm, it is very interesting that the Sui harem was mimicked exactly from Zhou Dynasty. I mean Zhou Dynasty seems to be too distant for the Sui to even think about using as a model. Are there any particular reasons why the Zhou chose to increase the number of concubines by multiples of three? I know Chinese have always liked the number nine since it was the greatest single-digit odd number.

I am impressed with how Empress Dugu managed to convince her husband not to take in any concubines. After her death, Sui Wendi went from not having any concubines to having a harem consisting of 120 women. Well, he certainly knew how to enjoy himself.

Anyway, I don’t mean to sound too greedy, but how come nobody translated the Yuan Dynasty Imperial Harem? Was it left out on purpose? If not, then the translation of it would complete this list.

Xie Xie,

[galvatron prime]

I too see why no one translate the liao-qidan dynastly ,the xixia dynastly ,the jin dynastly harem as well,it too will complete the list as le say ,thank you .

[orchid_dreams]

元朝只設后、妃、嬪三等，但人數不定。

In the Yuan Dynasty, there were only the titles "Hou (empress)", "Fei" and "Pin", and there was no limit on the number of each.

[orchid_dreams]

I too see why no one translate the liao-qidan dynastly ,the xixia dynastly ,the jin dynastly harem as well,it too will complete the list as le say ,thank you .

What do you mean by "liao-qidan"? sorry, it's quite hard reading in Hanyu Pinyin.
I couldn't find anything on the imperial harem of Xi Xia (西夏), I think it would probably be a bit too early in Chinese history to have ranks for the emperor's concubines.
I've listed Jin (晋) already.

[galvatron prime]

I am sorry and want i mean is liao dynastlyfounded by qidan and jin dynastly (1115-1234) who founded by nuzhen .