68 replies to this topic

[Rong Qin Wang]

From a parent's point of view, I guess, it might be good; as it would actually allow their married teenagers to experiment on sex without having to worry about consequences of pre-martial sex or children out of wedlock. However, there will be drawbacks to this arrangement:

Parents will have to continue to be responsible for their children and grand children for a longer time. So, parents must have sufficient funds to support their children and grandchildren. (I think most parents are already stretched in looking after their children to think of this additional responsibility).

From a teenager's point of view, again there will be pros and cons: Early marriage, especially arranged marriages can be horrors sometimes. Of course where previously in arranged marriages, some may claim, love happens after - once, Oriental arranged marriages were liken to a kettle of cold water being boiled and soon it will turn hot, whilst Western marriages were liken to hot water in kettle turning cold. In the olden days, where divorce are frowned upon and even disallowed, marriage to the wrong part could be hell and some marriages may never reach the level as it was originally intended for - hot and boil with passion and love.

Right now, I just wonder how many teenagers would even allow their parents to even consider arranging a marriage for them, without kicking up a ruckus or even suing parents for violation of their rights? Ok, this are just some of my thoughts, may not necessary reflect how others feel.

Zunjing de Centaur,

You are right; it is very comforting to parents to realize that their wild teenagers can just experience on sex without having any worries. In the Asian culture, I think parents will always been responsible for their children for a longer period of time than in the Western culture. It is not uncommon for different generations to live together as a big extended family.

Of course, some can claim that love happens after the arranged marriage, but I really don’t think that is most likely. It can only happen if neither of them have not had someone else in mind. I guess in ancient society, people don’t get outside the house very often, so the chances of meeting new people are pretty slim. In ancient time, where divorces were forbidden, wrong part on marriages will result in devastation, especially for the women since men can always take in mistresses.

Well, today’s society is extremely different from ancient times. So, I think that 95% of the teenagers today won’t even consider having a marriage arranged for them by their parents. Personally, I am very old-fashioned, so you cannot include me in the 95% of majority. Hence, I have asked my parents to arrange a marriage for me since I am turning 19 soon. I really don’t want to get married, but I just wanted to see who would make a good son-in-law to them. My mother is a very open woman, so she declined the offer, and wanted me to make the decision on my own. Is it not weird?

Xie Xie,

[Rong Qin Wang]

Ha!

Colorful family there.

So how old would Emperors/Princes be when they married, in general?

Zunjing de Yang Zongbao,

I think most Emperors and princes got married at around 14-16 years old since that is considered the mature age for marriage.

However, Qing Emperors Shun Zhi and Kang Xi both got married a few years earlier for political reasons.

[Rong Qin Wang]

I think people in the countryside don't really care as much.

My maternal grandmother was married to my grandfather for a dowry of 200 dollars. She didn't care much. My grandmother liked to joke about how stupid and honest my grandfather was.

Still, they have eight children, have a happy and eventful marriage and liked to curse at each other. Sometimes they also fought each other with sticks.

Zunjing de Sephodwyrm Xian Sheng,

I think the situation regarding your grandparents proves that people back then really had a different definition of "love." Love is often expressed as a luxury rather than a right since most of the time ancient people didn't really marry for love. I guess you will be happy if you did not have to fight with your spouse daily. In order to show filial piety, you would marry anyone your parents arranged for you to. So, marriage became a responsibility rather than just doing it for love.

Well, I am so happy to hear that your grandparents had a wonderful arranged marriage, and they had eight children together! That can be a great role model for other arranged marriages!

Xie Xie for sharing with us that information!

[shawn]

I personally think that Ming emperors are lecherous as compared to other dynasties. Married women, widows, the emperors would just take them. Either that, or they have very soft spots for women (regardless of their marital status).

[Rong Qin Wang]

Zunjing de China History Forum members,

First of all, can someone please give me their definition of a lecherous and perverted ruler? I would assume that since we mostly live in a society, where monogamy is mandatory, people tend to criticize rulers for having many wives at a time. However, some have forgotten that polygamy was a very common practice during the ancient times. It could even be considered as a requirement for Emperors to have numerous concubines. Hence, having unlimited numbers of concubines would not make an Emperor lecherous, in my opinion. However, if an Emperor went outside the palace to go sightseeing, and slept with another woman, who has not been named his concubine yet, and then not take responsibility for it, then I would consider him a pervert! Then again, he can do anything he wants since he is the Emperor.

I am sure there were many other perverted Emperors in Chinese History; however, the one I can automatically think of off the top of my head is Tang Ming Huang. How can he marry his daughter-in-law?! I mean that is not incest, but absolutely going against social morals! I have read about numerous occasions regarding lords during Spring/Autumn and Warring States period taking in their sons’ future wives as their own concubines. That is already too disgusting, but it was still forgivable since they were only the future wives of their sons, meaning a legal ceremony was not yet conducted. However, in Tang Ming Huang’s case, Yang Gui Fei was already the official wife of Prince Shou. I cannot believe Tang Ming Huang was capable of committing such a crime! Because of this, I will vote Tang Ming Huang as the most lecherous/perverted Emperor in Chinese History.

Well, this is just my opinion, and I am very interested in knowing what other members think.

Xie Xie,

[Rong Qin Wang]

Zunjing de China History Forum members,

Hmm, I am just curious as to how other members in here feel regarding the Great Emperor Kang Xi. Other than having some major accomplishments, Emperor Kang Xi is also famous for having 54 wives and 56 children. Of course, this eventually led to some of the bloodiest battles for the throne in Chinese History. I know that Emperors would more often than not have a lot of children, but having 56 children is more than I can even imagine.

With the above background, do most people consider Emperor Kang Xi as one of the most lecherous and perverted Emperor? Or was he just merely fulfilling his responsibility to produce a lot of offspring?

By the way, I know there was a tradition during the Qing Dynasty that there must be a selection of new worthy ladies every three years. Will it always happen every three years regardless of how old an Emperor was? For example, would the selection of new worthy ladies still be necessary for the 82 years old Emperor Qian Long?

Xie Xie,

[orchid_dreams]

By the way, I know there was a tradition during the Qing Dynasty that there must be a selection of new worthy ladies every three years. Will it always happen every three years regardless of how old an Emperor was? For example, would the selection of new worthy ladies still be necessary for the 82 years old Emperor Qian Long?

Answering your question: the selection of Xiu Nv (秀女) was cancelled in Emperor Qian Long's later years.

[Rong Qin Wang]

Answering your question: the selection of Xiu Nv (秀女) was cancelled in Emperor Qian Long's later years.

Zunjing de Orchid_Dreams,

Hmm, this is a very interesting topic! Can you please tell me more information regarding the selection of Xiu Nv every three years? For example, when did this tradition begin and who started it? How many candidates were there and how many were actually chosen? Did the Emperor select the Xiu Nv himself or did his mother and his principal wife pick on his behalf?

If you are too busy, then I would really appreciate it if you can direct me to some relevant references.

Xie Xie,

[bejean]

Zunjing de Orchid_Dreams,

Hmm, this is a very interesting topic! Can you please tell me more information regarding the selection of Xiu Nv every three years? For example, when did this tradition begin and who started it? How many candidates were there and how many were actually chosen? Did the Emperor select the Xiu Nv himself or did his mother and his principal wife pick on his behalf?

If you are too busy, then I would really appreciate it if you can direct me to some relevant references.

Xie Xie,

I am not Zunjing but i like to share abit of what i read.

Candidates are chosen from reputable manchu and to a lesser extent Han families. The families have to bribe the various enunchs, officals, etc so their daughters would get a better chance to serve the Emperor. They are inspected for illness, virginity (obviously, hehe), etc. They also need to undergo vigorous training in the courts ettique, rules, etc. Each would be assigned 2 maids. The final selection of girls is down to Emperor but he might be compelled to listen to his Empress and Empress Dowager during the final selection to give them "face".

Anyway, selected Xiu Nu has a long way to go to achieve "success" yet. Everyone in the Courts like someone of their own clan and would take care of their own. They have to again grease the palms of the various persons of influence in the courts and it's often not the most beautiful woman that will end up in the Emperor's bed. (Guangxu's wife and leading concubine is real ugly).

[Rong Qin Wang]

I am not Zunjing but i like to share abit of what i read.

Candidates are chosen from reputable manchu and to a lesser extent Han families. The families have to bribe the various enunchs, officals, etc so their daughters would get a better chance to serve the Emperor. They are inspected for illness, virginity (obviously, hehe), etc. They also need to undergo vigorous training in the courts ettique, rules, etc. Each would be assigned 2 maids. The final selection of girls is down to Emperor but he might be compelled to listen to his Empress and Empress Dowager during the final selection to give them "face".

Anyway, selected Xiu Nu has a long way to go to achieve "success" yet. Everyone in the Courts like someone of their own clan and would take care of their own. They have to again grease the palms of the various persons of influence in the courts and it's often not the most beautiful woman that will end up in the Emperor's bed. (Guangxu's wife and leading concubine is real ugly).

Zunjing de Bejean,

Thanks for your response!

The structure of Qing Dynasty was quite different than other dynasties since it was established with the unification of all the different Manchu tribes. The eight banners system would later become the backbone of the Qing, and everyone was virtually divided into one of these banners.

Of course, the candidates for concubines would most likely be selected from reputable Manchu clans. It was possible for a Han woman to become a concubine provided that she was adopted by a Manchu noble and took after a Manchu clan name. I have always looked at this event as a mandatory one. I mean why would ministers insist on having their daughters being summoned to the Rear Palace, a place full of intrigues with no sympathy for anything? Would not they rather have their daughters living at home until they got married?

Of course, the procedures during selections of Xiu Nu would not only be meticulous, but quite elaborate as well.

I am not too sure if the Emperor would be compelled to listen to his Empress or not; however, he would most likely follow the order of his mother due to filial piety.

Yes, a new Xiu Nu would really have many steps to climb.

Well, beauty is a very subjective thing, so we cannot really use today’s standard. In my opinion, all ancient women were ugly based on the portraits I have seen. Heheheh!

Hmm, what I would really like to know is what is the difference between a Xiu Nu and a Gong Nu? I know a Xiu Nu was a lowest ranking concubine of an Emperor, while a Gong Nu was merely a maid. However, how were Gong Nu selected? From what I have read, Gong Nu were also people from the eight banners and daughters of ministers or nobles. If an Emperor took a liking in one of the Gong Nu, would she be promoted to Gui Ren? Was not Gui Ren the title given to selected Xiu Nu?

Xie Xie,

[sgdark]

very interesting topic

[sg_han]

I was just wondering since the emperor always have his attendents by his side.....wouldnt he lack the privacy during sex? and do emperors masturbate. ok these questions are weird but it just came across my mind haha

[Whsie]

if we're just talking about emperors of great sexual appetite than that list would go on forever. Tang Taizong, Kangxi, Han Wudi, Han Gaozu could all easily be included. It's rather harder to find emperors with less concubines such as Ming Xiaozong or Sui Wendi. If we're talking about pure perverts, then probably Jin Wudi, last king of Shang, Song Duzong could all easily be considered. Jin Wudi was famous for having a goat lead him to a concubines room (10,000 concubines). The last Shang emperor naturally played with naked women in the pool. Song Duzong was so perverted that he would have about 10 women in the morning thanking him for mating with them. Tang Xuanzong was obviously famous for taking away his son's wife.

[Rong Qin Wang]

kang xi

Zunjing de Strayly,

Hmm, are you saying Emperor Kang Xi was the most lecherous Chinese ruler? If so, can you please give some of your rationales on why you voted for him? I would take a wild guess and say the reason you thought of Emperor Kang Xi as being the most perverted ruler was because you have looked at the Qing’s genealogies, and felt overwhelmed at the fact that he had 54 wives and 56 children. Am I correct? If I am wrong, then I apologize for making stupid guesses. Heheheh! Anyway, would you please state your reasons?

Xie Xie,

[Rong Qin Wang]

if we're just talking about emperors of great sexual appetite than that list would go on forever. Tang Taizong, Kangxi, Han Wudi, Han Gaozu could all easily be included. It's rather harder to find emperors with less concubines such as Ming Xiaozong or Sui Wendi. If we're talking about pure perverts, then probably Jin Wudi, last king of Shang, Song Duzong could all easily be considered. Jin Wudi was famous for having a goat lead him to a concubines room (10,000 concubines). The last Shang emperor naturally played with naked women in the pool. Song Duzong was so perverted that he would have about 10 women in the morning thanking him for mating with them. Tang Xuanzong was obviously famous for taking away his son's wife.

Zunjing de Whsie,

You are right; the answer(s) to this question would rely heavily on one’s definition(s) of lecherous. Whether they liked it or not, almost all Emperors had great sexual appetites to a certain extent with the amount of concubines they were allowed to have, which was a part of the palace protocols. Also, what is one’s definition of great sexual appetites? Would it just be measured by the amount of children they have sired? Han Wudi did not have nearly as many children as Tang Taizong or Emperor Kang Xi; however, I believe he was more of a womanizer than the other two Emperors since it was rumored that he can survive three days without food, but not one day without women.

As I have mentioned before, since it was almost mandatory for Emperors to have many concubines, this does not classify as lecherous!

You have brought up some good examples of pure perverted rulers.

If all the tales regarding the last King of Shang Dynasty were not fabricated, then this last king certainly fit the stereotypical type of the last bad king. He would no doubt be a perverted king. Yes, Jin Wudi was infamous for having one of the largest harems for an Emperor. Since he had more concubines than he needed and what was considered the usual requirement, he was definitely more sexually active than most of the other Emperors. Amazingly, I have never heard of Song Duzong’s sexual habits. Hence, I have really learned something new. I have only read about how bad of an Emperor Song Duzong was and how he even though was not the last Song Emperor, was the last Song Emperor who could have made a difference in saving the Song Dynasty from the Mongol invasion. Well, at the end, Song Duzong realized what a horrible Emperor he was and tried to fix his mistakes by appointing a capable Crown Prince; however, he still made bad judgments in trusting the corrupted Prime Minister. Yeah, I definitely voted for Tang MingHuang as one of the most lecherous Emperors for setting a terrible example by snatching away the wife of his son.

You are right; it is almost impossible to find Emperors with only one wife and no harem. At first, I thought Sui Wendi was the only Emperor to have compelled to his wife’s wish of having no other concubines; however, I was quite shocked to find out Ming Xiaozong also fell in the same category. Nevertheless, I have failed to find a third Emperor, who only had one wife during his reign or at least when his Empress was still alive.