11 replies to this topic

[ren]

According to a brief net search, it says they are one of the founding tribes of the Mongols, and yet other sites say they are Turkic. What do the historical and other reputable sources say about who they were?

According to a new study, "Molecular genetic analysis of Wanggu remains, Inner Mongolia, China", http://www3.intersci...597005/ABSTRACT, the Wanggu "maternal lineages" (mtDNA) have a similarity with Turkic peoples:

In addition, we reveal that on the basis of mtDNA data, the ancient tribe may share a recent common ancestor with the Turkic-speaking Uzbeks and Uighurs.

A discussion relating to the new study,
http://z6.invisionfr...p?showtopic=735.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding the Wanggu / 汪古 (according to this site, http://www.zgwww.com...22_ts011098.htm, it should be pronounced as "öOnggüd")

---------

I've found some helpful info if someone can translate, http://www.nmg.gov.c.../lswh/gd_20.htm,
http://www.zgwww.com...22_ts011098.htm.

More on the name:
http://www.cshu.org/...asp?w=汪�部.

On how the Chinese clan/surname 汪, are related or not related to the Wanggu:
http://www.zhangxian....gov.cn/wk2.htm,
http://www.iwangs.co...1...e=e&fpage=1.

More sites:
http://edu.anhuinews...000240482.shtml,
http://forum.dragon-...o...9060&page=1.

Edited by Yun, 19 October 2006 - 12:08 AM.

[Zorigo]

I never heard of Wanggu until now. Isn't the word "Mongol" entered our vocabulary around 19th century, the present day Mongolia was called Tartaria by european map makers up until 18th century. Because of the Genghis Khan trace his roots to the Mongol tribe in northeastern Mongolia, the Mongol name has gained acceptance, before that everything was Turk. Present day the word Mongol means that of Turco-Mongol type of people who more closely resemble Eastern look, whereas the Turk means that of Turco-Mongol type of people who more closely resemble Eurasian look. From this line of argument, if Wanggu had existed, they must have been a Turkic Tribe.

I think you don't know what you are writing about. Please make your statement with proving documents

The name word MONGOL is existed in XIII century as it is Today. Chinggis Khaan named his Empire - Ikh Mongol Ulus- Great Mongol
------------------------------------------------
PS: what the name is that WANGGU? Is there any non-sinocized version?

Edited by Zorigo, 11 October 2006 - 10:30 AM.

[Toluy]

What is the definition of Turkic and Mongol? I think both of them are appellations which represent certain title of tribes. In these tribes the ethnicities of those nomads are different from each other. Sometimes the language is as different as the ethnicities are among a single tribe. So it's more appropriate to say Turk is a name of tribal union than an/some ethnicities, and so is mongol.
As for the tribe Wanggu, I really never heard of it before. Maybe someone can give some info of it

[Yun]

Now I get it, you're talking about the Onggut tribe: http://www.a3guo.com...ppe.html#onggut

I'll edit the thread title to reflect that.

[ren]

Ok, so the Onggut are a Turkic people:
http://www.chinahist....php/t4333.html,

http://www.chinaknow.../oenggueds.html.

[Akskl]

...Bar Sauma, born in Tai-tu ( Northern China ) about 1260, was a descendant of the Onggud Turks who joined the Mongols early in the reign of Chinggis Khan. Like other Onggud Turks, his family were members of the Nestorian church, the most active Christian church in Central Asia...

http://darkwing.uore..._kubla_khan.htm

Text based on Budge, E.A. Wallis. The Monk of Kublai Khan, Emperor of China; or The History of the Life and Travels of Rabban Sawma, Envoy and Plenipotentiary of the Mongol Khans to the Kings of Europe and Markos who as Yahbh-Allaha III Became Patriarch of the Nestorian Church in Asia. London : The Religious Tract Society, 1928.

[Akskl]

http://syrcom.cua.ed...HV5N2Klein.html

...Whether or not he was right, however, is questionable, when we consider that even a figure such as the catholikos Yahballāhā III, an Öngüt Turk from Koshang, had no knowledge of Syriac at the time of his election.12

U6. The Turkic inscriptions from China30

[29] These comments have related to Central Asia and the specific local characteristics. Every region has its own peculiarities, and for this reason we should be very careful about drawing generalized conclusions. In order at least to have mentioned this area briefly, and at the same time to draw attention to gaps in the research that have yet to be filled, I would like to direct our eye further towards to the East, to China.nlike the Christians of the Chu Valley, their Öngüt Turkic fellow-believers on the Huanghe and in other parts of China all formulated their inscriptions in Turkic.The external form of the tombstones from Olon Sume-in Tor in the Ordos area, the Huanghe curve, where the Christian Öngüt owned a kingdom dependent on the Mongols, is also completely different. The tombstones from this region are not unhewn rocks from the riverbed, but monoliths in the form of sarcophagi.31 They have short inscriptions on top. The cross shapes represented differ from those of the Chu in that they include fewer decorations in the form of precious stones, and instead are often based on the lotus flower. The inscriptions are extremely short and follow the simple scheme: "Bu quwra ... nïŋ ol" (this is the grave of ...). No date is given. There are numerous and often very long Turkic-language inscriptions in Syriac script from the South Chinese port of Quanzhou, formerly Zaitun. In addition to the sarcophagus form known from the Öngüts, Zaitun has another form: tombstones that resemble altars. By far the majority of these inscriptions, already collected by our Chinese colleague Yang Qin Zhan, have not yet been edited, although they include particularly interesting bi- and tri-lingual inscriptions that have Syriac, Chinese and Latin in addition to the Turkic main text. In any case, they are of a completely different character to the Central Asian tombstones, and still need to be studied and evaluated by turkologists to a degree that is worthy of their significance. Texts in Turkic written in Syriac script have also been found at Bulayïq and Qurutqa,32 but here we leave the stone inscriptions.

[Akskl]

I have read somewhere (don't remember where) that descendants of the Onguts are todays Uak (or Waq?) of Kazakh Middle Juz (see www.elim.kz).

[Yihesan]

Yes indeed, I also heard that some Qazaqs were descendents of the Önggüt people.

[Richard Lim]

If you are interested in pursuing this topic a bit further, have a look at:

Peter Golden, An Introduction to the History of the Turkic Peoples: Ethnogenesis and State-formation in Medieval and Early Modern Eurasia and the Middle East (Wiesbaden: Otto Harrassowitz 1992).

[Ou Weiren]

In the seventh century Önggüd were identified as Western Turks. The Turks in this context consisted of both eastern and western tribes that were divided and ruled by the miscellaneous states south of the Altai Mountains (Jin Shan) and east of Lake Barköl. The fact that they were Turkic has more to do with their customs and language then anything to do with any racial identity. Their early history is confusing in that Chinese historical documents give conflicting information, but even though these early historical accounts have inconsistent timelines, they are interesting in that they do identify names and places allowing us to speculate the origin of the Önggüd.

Throughout their history the Önggüd have been referred to by a myriad of names. In their early history the people were called Chuyue 处月, Zhuxie 朱邪, Shatuo 沙坨, White Tatar ("White Tatar" also used by Mongols, who were called the Black Tatar) Wang gu 汪古 and 旺古, Yong gu 雍古 are used in the Yuan Shi and are transcriptions for Önggüd ( 汪 and 旺 were pronounced "ong" in the middle ages).

After the Five Dynasties the Shatuo split into three different groups. It is the history of one of these groups that I find to be the most interesting aspect of this tribe’s history. Only touched upon in this thread is the Önggüd conversion to Christianity. This appears to have occurred early in the 11th century during the time when the Shatuo were split into three distinct groups at the end of the Five Dynasties. Identified as Christian in the Yuan shi, the Önggüd were of significant interest to Western travelers during the Middle Ages. It is believed that this group (Tiende Önggüd) preserved its identity even into the 20th century in Ordos, Inner Mongolia (Erke'üd clan - Erke'üd = Christian).

It is also noted that the Tu zu 土族 in Qinghai also claim to be descendents of the Shatuo and still refer to themselves as White Tatar. This group appears to be another of the three branches of Shatuo that split up at the end of the Five Dynasties. This groups appears to have remained Buddhist or if they ever converted to Christianity, returned to Buddhism as they were during the Five Dynasties.

I would suggest that research in the area identified as Gao Tang 高唐 during the Yuan dynasty might provide significant information about the Önggüd since this area was controlled by the Önggüd. Prince George, the first recorded convert to Catholism in China, ruled this area in present day Shandong province. BTW, I believe the "Kawshang" identified on page 135 of The Monks of Kublai Khan Emperor of China is actually referring to "Gao Tang". All other evidence would indicate this and that "Kawshang" is actually a transcriptional error.

The area known as Tenduc (Tiande) referrenced by Marco Polo, once on the northeast bend in the Yellow River, is another area that might provide significant information.

I'd be happy to provide references/sources if requested. I'm new here and will try to find time to post more and provide more details.

Edited by Ou Weiren, 27 December 2007 - 12:13 AM.

[Akskl]

Yes, Ou Weiren, please, provide the references/sources.


Henry H. Howorth "History of the Mongols" Part I "The Mongols Proper and the Kalmuks", London, Longman, Green and Co, 1876

p.26
THE ONGUTS. - The Onguts, of Raschid were known to the Chinese as White Tartars. One section of the Tartars above described was called Jaghan Tartar, i.e. White Tartars, and it seems pretty certain that the Onguts were a section of the Tartars proper. We are told that about the year 880 or 883, Chu ye che sin, otherwise called Li kue chang (who was of the Turkish race of the Sha to), and his son, Li ke yung, having been defeated by He lien tho and others, left China, afraid of being punished, and retired among the Tha che (this is an alternative form of the name Tartar), and that he re-entered China followed by the Tha che, and with their help defeated the rebel Hoam chao. After this he settled with the Tha che between Yun chau and Tai chau (two towns in the northern part of Shansi - Visdelou, op.cit., 328). I have no doubt that these Tartars, who occur frequently in subsequent history, are the White Tartars of the days of Jingis. At that time they were in the service of Kin Emperors, by whom they were employed to garrison a portion of the Great Wall, whence their name of Onguts, from Ongu a wall (Raschid, quoted by D'Ohsson, I.82. Note). Their chief, at the time of Jingis (according to Raschid), was called Alakush Tikin Kuri. Alakush is a Turkish proper name, which means a pied bird; Tikin is a title borne by chiefs of Turkish tribes (Id.). Gaubil, who calls him Alausse, says he belonged to the ancient race of Kings of the Thu kiu (Op.cit., 10), which exactly agrees with the fact named above, that the leader who planted the colony of Onguts in Northern Shan si was of the race of the Sha to Turks, which accounts further for his close connection with the chief of the Naimans (who were Turks too - A.). I believe the Onguts, then, to have been a colony of Tartars from Manchuria, governed by a Turkish dynasty.

Edited by Akskl, 22 February 2009 - 12:08 AM.