64 replies to this topic

[Chen06]

mmm, thats a hard one. Though im not quite sure what would happen economically, I do believe that alot more traditional Chinese culture would be preserved so I believe I would choose the 1st one for cultures sake. I cant help but choose it since their are few things in the world that piss me off more than the Cultural Revolution. Regarding this issue of culture, I have always thought what China would be like if the Ming (and not the Qing) was the last dynasty. Would that modern China be more like modern Korea or what do you think?

[MattW]

mmm, thats a hard one. Though im not quite sure what would happen economically, I do believe that alot more traditional Chinese culture would be preserved so I believe I would choose the 1st one for cultures sake. I cant help but choose it since their are few things in the world that piss me off more than the Cultural Revolution. Regarding this issue of culture, I have always thought what China would be like if the Ming (and not the Qing) was the last dynasty. Would that modern China be more like modern Korea or what do you think?

You obviously value tradition above advancement- i believe that although Mao destroyed alot of China's cultural heritage, he laid the foundations for what China is like today, and i would always prefer to see a strong leader at the helm that have a country with nobody to lead it, whether or not he/she is a 'great' leader, as countries tend to develop better under effective leadership. This was the case with Mao and China.

[Yizheng]

Cannot help but respond.
Chen06, I could not agree more on the sadness of the Cultural Revolution and the irreparable losses it caused.

MattW, strange that you should make a valuing tradition/valuing advancement dichotomy (I think that's the right word, hope I'm understood). Why should it be a choice? There is always friction between old and new, but some societies have proved rather good at preserving their cultural heritage and becoming very modern at the same time (Japan, for example).
And some countries have managed to develop rather well without a strong leader (including your own, I think, if you are from Britain). Again Japan, it has had nothing but unstable governments for decades, but seems to do ok.

Just as an aside, just curious, would you have liked to live yourself under the great leadership of Mao?

[MattW]

Cannot help but respond.
Chen06, I could not agree more on the sadness of the Cultural Revolution and the irreparable losses it caused.

MattW, strange that you should make a valuing tradition/valuing advancement dichotomy (I think that's the right word, hope I'm understood). Why should it be a choice? There is always friction between old and new, but some societies have proved rather good at preserving their cultural heritage and becoming very modern at the same time (Japan, for example).
And some countries have managed to develop rather well without a strong leader (including your own, I think, if you are from Britain). Again Japan, it has had nothing but unstable governments for decades, but seems to do ok.

Just as an aside, just curious, would you have liked to live yourself under the great leadership of Mao?

I agree with you and Chen06 on the sadness of the CR.

The example of England/Britain developing without a strong leader is the exception to the rule i believe- maybe i should have been more specific in saying that in states/countries where an entirely new style of government is introduced a strong leader is often required to make things work. The French republic needed Robespierre, in fact thinking about it the English Republic needed Cromwell, and China needed Mao.

I believe it is an ineveitability that some tradition will be sacraficed for advancement [take the Reformation for example]- it obviously depends on your view of whether the sacrafice is worth it in forming a judgement about Mao's influence on modern chinese history.

On your last aside q., if i could be transported back now i would jump at the chance, as it is historically very intriguing to see what china was like in Mao's period in power on a personal individual level. But i'm not sure i would enjoy my experience. But i'd much rather have lived in a china run by Mao than a China an imperial government where warlordism was rife. Does that help you?

[Yizheng]

It's telling that you suggest you wouldn't have enjoyed the experience of living under Mao. I think your instinct is correct. I doubt Robespierre and Cromwell would have been much fun either.
Is building some kind of radically different new system in itself a worthy thing? Most such radical attempts have been proved shortlived and subsequently been abandoned or toned down.

Mao was one facet of the grand communist experiment of the 20th century. I have a lot of understanding for how communism originated and what initially attracted people to it, and they did not have the benefit of hindsight of course to know what consequences it would have. But wherever it was implemented this experiment brought far more damage than good. It was a huge and tragic aberration of countless deaths and immense destruction. Whether it was Mao, Soviet communism, Pol Pot, the Kims in Korea, they could all said to be introduing an entirely new style of government, but at what cost?

All of these experiments have been abandoned (in substance but not in name, in the case of China), failed, or are in the process of failing.

I have absolutely no love of the warlords at all, but I think if I were really forced to go back in time, I'd go there rather than to Mao. I wouldn't want to experience any more of the kind of 'new government' system 'great leaders' produce than the little I have tasted. It was enough.

[MattW]

Is building some kind of radically different new system in itself a worthy thing? Most such radical attempts have been proved shortlived and subsequently been abandoned or toned down. name, in the case of China), failed, or are in the process of failing.

I'd say it is a worthy thing- i means that mistakes are not repated in the future, and some attempts at imposing new systems are crucial in the development of a country's system of government. For example, not a Chinese example, but the Cromwell republican period in england was a necessary step on the road to British parliamentary democracy. I doubt the mistakes of the Mao era will ever be repeated in China's future history. What do you think?

[changsham]

Hi all, history has shown that no one learns from the mistakes of their ancestors or predecessors. Time seems to forget easily and quickly. Thats why peoples don't get on and there are endless cycles of wars and other man made calamities. And also witness the recent economic troubles.

Given the right or should I say wrong circumstances, mistakes will repeat themselves but will be dressed in different clothing. Same same but different.

Communism was supposed to be the saviour of the poor from the burdens of the feudal system and early industrial exploitation. In a way it was successfull as it forced capitalism and democracy to develop to cater to the aspirations of the masses while previously they were the domain of the rich and privileged

Communism is not so much a failure but an obsolete political doctrine in most cases such as in China. No doubt some day with increasing populations, diminishing resources and environmental concerns and its inability to keep itself in check capitalism as we understand it now will also become obsolete.

I believe there are always latent forces of darkness waiting around to take advantage of when chaos returns. The next ones to emerge and take control could be a toxic mix of Judeo/Christian and Muslim fundamentalists.

Edited by changsham, 24 October 2008 - 05:33 PM.

[MattW]

Communism was supposed to be the saviour of the poor from the burdens of the feudal system and early industrial exploitation. In a way it was successfull as it forced capitalism and democracy to develop to cater to the aspirations of the masses while previously they were the domain of the rich and privileged

Communism is not so much a failure but an obsolete political doctrine in most cases such as in China. No doubt some day with increasing populations, diminishing resources and environmental concerns and its inability to keep itself in check capitalism as we understand it now will also become obsolete.

I've never thought of Communism's effect on Capitalism like that before- good point. Communism hasn't failed, but as you is out of date with the modern world, and energy-dependant capitlaism is going the same way. Maybe a new ideology will emerge to fill this growing void... History will in many cases ineveitably repeat itself, but i doubt anything like the Cultural Revolution will happen in Communist China again, now that the lesson has been learned...

[changsham]

Thanks MattW, perhaps this something that can be debated more in depth..


As to the CR, I tend to think it has more in common with the great religious wars and purges that have happened all to frequently throughout history. I would agree it may never again happen the same way but if anything similar did happen it would be for other reasons.

For a recent example, I believe the Taiping if successful in conquering China could easily have turned China upside down in much the same way.


What has also fascinated me about the CR is how it seemed to be a parallel happening to the Counter Culture Movement which manifested itself simultaniously in the west at the same time. Though the Counter Culture was far more tame and generally peacefull it did have profound effect on debunking and scorning old values and changed society's thinking and its foot soldiers were also rampaging youth. And it did have its share of lunacy too.

Edited by changsham, 25 October 2008 - 11:52 PM.

[MattW]

What has also fascinated me about the CR is how it seemed to be a parallel happening to the Counter Culture Movement which manifested itself simultaniously in the west at the same time. Though the Counter Culture was far more tame and generally peacefull it did have profound effect on debunking and scorning old values and changed society's thinking and its foot soldiers were also rampaging youth. And it did have its share of lunacy too.

The CR has to be one pf the most fascinating movements in history, and i think it is almost unparalleled, in terms of its course, motives e.t.c. It has similarities with other movements, but the way in which the youth of China rose up against the 'old guard' and culture is almost unique.

[changsham]

I agree the CR period is one of the most fascinating event in world history and should be discussed more robustly on this forum. I myself collect artifacts from the period.
But at the same time I believe it is still little understood. I myself struggle at times to try to understand what exactly happened and where. It is hard to gauge the full impact from reading books.. Reading about it seems like reading about ones bad dream.

There also seems to be collective amnesia and hidden guilt from the government and most people who were directly involved and in particular those who held some power or were enthusiastic supporters. A lot of what has happened appears lost in the fog of history.

There is no shortage of information around from those who suffered but little from those who punished.

I have read accounts and seen documentaries from some who participated with gusto and most are quite apologetic. Most however the state ignorance or youth as an excuse for their actions. But surely there were older ones who knew exactly what they were doing.

I have spoken myself to a person who was involved and aged 17 at the time. His recollections were that he did not understand much of what and why it happened but it was the thing to do at the time. Travelling the country with no responsibilities and freedom, meeting girls and lots of excitement. He did admit he was enthusiastic about smashing things. He however denied using any physical violence on others. He likened it to being part of a pack of wild dogs. Of course now he is quite contrite and cringes at the stupidity of it all.

I can understand some of this from my own family history. My fathers family were heavily involved with the Italian Fascist movement and paid the price after the war. None of my older relatives are willing to discuss what happened and I only pick up little snippets of information from different relatives on rare occasions. But I don't know what really happened, or understand it.


It would be good to hear on this forum from some of those that were directly involved. I imagine there would be a few members with first hand experiences.


Also can posters recommend any good reading on the period?

Edited by changsham, 26 October 2008 - 06:38 PM.

[MattW]

But at the same time I believe it is still little understood. I myself struggle at times to try to understand what exactly happened and where. It is hard to gauge the full impact from reading books.. Reading about it seems like reading about ones bad dream.

There also seems to be collective amnesia and hidden guilt from the government and most people who were directly involved and in particular those who held some power or were enthusiastic supporters. A lot of what has happened appears lost in the fog of history.

Also can posters recommend any good reading on the period?

The mark of a good book on the CR is one where the reader can gauge a real feeling of the turmoil that was present in that period. I don't think we will ever gain a complete understanding of the movement- as you say, alot of the information seems 'lost in the fog of history'- it is a period that most prefer to forget about that talk about- some of this must be down to guilt/shame/embarassment, some down to the culture of secrecy surrounding much of Mao's period in power.

I know of several really good books about the CR. Roderick Macfarquhar/Michael Schoenhals' 'Mao's Last Revolution' is a brilliant book that captures much of the political maneovering of the era, and the effect of the CR on ordinary people. Macfarquahr has also written a 3 volume epic entitles 'The Origins of the Cultural Revolution'- a great book for understanding the basis of the movement, though it is very long. Stanley Karnow's 'Mao and China' is an excellent narrative of the period, with detailed information on the factional conflicts that took place across China. Finally, 'Red Color News Soldier' by Li Zhensheng gives the perspective of an ordinary Chinese civilian on the CR, through dozens of revealing photos and some useful explanation. Hope this is helpful.

[Republican]

i say this now; that whoever was a part of the red guards during the CR should be doing double the effort in repairing the damage incurred throughout the CR.

this means, restoring traditional chinese values with filial piety and chinese customs like burning incense at family home shrines etc, the way the non-CR chinese on taiwan/hong kong/macau still do.

the CCP has made it a capital crime for the theft of treasured cultural artifacts; given the destruction incurred throughout the CR.
and mao?
that fucker's portrait should be pulled off the forbidden city; he's akin to stalin and hitler given the number of ppl he allowed die and let's not mention the CR. he did the most damage to chinese culture. if i were in power, i'd have his body burnt and flushed down the nearest dirtiest public toilet to be broadcast worldwide.

how many chinese kids today display filial piety and confucian values? burn incense at their family shrines?
or have they filled in the void left by the cultural revolution by becoming more westernised? christianised??!!
losers, the lot of em

[brightness]

Matt,

Robespierre's rule was called "Reign of Terror"; Cromwell's military dictatorship was also viewed as disaster in his own country. There was no progress or advancement in tyrannic despotism like those. Tyranny has been as old as human history, before more rational forms of governmenance came along. Tyranny is usually short-lived.

China certainly would have been more advanced / progressed further without Mao or if Mao died much earlier. Just look next door to the two Korea's. A strong leader like the Kims is not helpful to the nation's economy, living standards or in terms of practically any other parameter.

[Bruce]

Do you konw that even today more and more chinese people admire Mao? It's hard to predict what china's today would be without Mao. It's not necessary to argue with you. History will give him a fair justice. Nothing could change the fact that Mao is one of the greatest leaders in China and around the world. Mao's influence is still strong.
Most of us have bias have no qualification to criticize Mao. Mr Deng had given his objective appraisal about Mao years ago .