13 replies to this topic

[Shogun 144]

Okay another question folks, I am posting it here because I am afaird it may sound stupid.

One of the reasons why I first got hooked on Chinese history was because my father would tell me that the Southern Song held off the Mongols for several years through the use of many weapons the rest of the world would not see use of for sometime yet, like gunpowder weapons. One of the weapons my father would speak of was flamethrowers, now it sounds a little far-fetched, even for China, to have flamethrowers in the 13th century. Can someone with more knowledge then I please tell me if the Southern Song used flamethrowers against the Mongols?

Thanks in Advance,

Shogun

[Thaibebop]

I can say anyting about flamethowers in China, but I would not be surprised by ot. I know they were used in the ancient world of the Mediterranean, so I am sure they might have been in China.

[Mei Houwang]

Here is LiangJieMing's websight on Chinese flamethrowers.

http://authors.histo...sh16062006.html

[Thaibebop]

Cool.

[Non-Han Nan Ban]

There's an essential difference between the 7th century AD Byzantine Greek flamethrower and the 10th century AD early 5 Dynasties and 10 Kingdoms Era Chinese flamethrower (the Pen-huo-qi). The Greek flamethrower contained a single siphonging hose and piston bellow, which would shoot spurts of flame by the use of naptha chemicals, a tar-like substance that would stick onto surfaces and continue to burn regardless of one tossing buckets of water onto it to douse it out. The Chinese flamethrower of the 10th century (c. 919 AD, I believe, which would make it a good 4 decades before the Northern Song Dynasty), however, employed a more advanced technique, with two piston-bellows chambers that were able to feed the siphoning hose with the liquid, flammable juice at different strokes and intervals, thus maintaining a continuous blast of flame. This is obviously more destructive and efficient than the Greek model, which spurted out flames every time the single piston-bellow was able to push the liquid out of the siphoned hose.

Eric

Edited by Non-Han Nan Ban, 18 August 2006 - 03:20 PM.

[Liang Jieming]

Okay another question folks, I am posting it here because I am afaird it may sound stupid.

One of the reasons why I first got hooked on Chinese history was because my father would tell me that the Southern Song held off the Mongols for several years through the use of many weapons the rest of the world would not see use of for sometime yet, like gunpowder weapons. One of the weapons my father would speak of was flamethrowers, now it sounds a little far-fetched, even for China, to have flamethrowers in the 13th century. Can someone with more knowledge then I please tell me if the Southern Song used flamethrowers against the Mongols?

Thanks in Advance,

Shogun

Great summary Non-Han Nan Ban!

Basically, the Chinese probably learnt of the Byzantine Flame-splurter by the mid-Tang or earlier. They took this Flame-splurter and married it with the double-piston bellows which was had already been in use for the last 900 years in China and created a continuous flamethrower (ie. a true flamethrower) by the late Tang (10th century).

Other early Advanced Chinese weaponry, the Rocket, the Firelance/gun, the Multiple Rocketlauncher, the Lever-principled catapult, the multiple bow arcuballista, the landmine, the water/seamine, the grenade, mortar/cannon etc.

[Thaibebop]

There's an essential difference between the 7th century AD Byzantine Greek flamethrower and the 10th century AD early 5 Dynasties and 10 Kingdoms Era Chinese flamethrower (the Pen-huo-qi). The Greek flamethrower contained a single siphonging hose and piston bellow, which would shoot spurts of flame by the use of naptha chemicals, a tar-like substance that would stick onto surfaces and continue to burn regardless of one tossing buckets of water onto it to douse it out. The Chinese flamethrower of the 10th century (c. 919 AD, I believe, which would make it a good 4 decades before the Northern Song Dynasty), however, employed a more advanced technique, with two piston-bellows chambers that were able to feed the siphoning hose with the liquid, flammable juice at different strokes and intervals, thus maintaining a continuous blast of flame. This is obviously more destructive and efficient than the Greek model, which spurted out flames every time the single piston-bellow was able to push the liquid out of the siphoned hose.

Eric

What was the fuel for the Chinese Model? Even if it laid down a constant flame if the fuel was weak and could be douses what good would it be.

[tadamson]

Someones missed the point. The Byzantines had several flame weapons. The single piston types were for 'greek fire' (which ignighted on hitting water), siege weapons shooting burning oil had double pistons (ironicaly double piston pumps were developed in the 1st C to fight fires1).

The first single piston Greek flamethrowers date to the 5th C BC.

[Liang Jieming]

Someones missed the point. The Byzantines had several flame weapons. The single piston types were for 'greek fire' (which ignighted on hitting water), siege weapons shooting burning oil had double pistons (ironicaly double piston pumps were developed in the 1st C to fight fires1).

The first single piston Greek flamethrowers date to the 5th C BC.

Interesting! You have a source I can go do some research on?

[Emperor Wang]

Did the ancient chinese used flamethrower as one of their artillery?

[Yang Zongbao]

Yes, they did.

Various other incendiary weapons in addition to this were used as well.

[mohistManiac]

The website doesn't seem to work. Anyone know if they were made of metal and know of any existing photos to show what they look like?

[RollingWave]

The website doesn't seem to work. Anyone know if they were made of metal and know of any existing photos to show what they look like?

Looking at the Korean court records of the battle of Noryang point (fought in late 1598, the final battle in the Imjin war where the Korean / Chinese fleet massacered retreating Japanese invasion forces) it appeared that they used this weapon in that battle at least. there was the reference the Chinese firing "噴火銃" from the decks of thier ships onto the decks of Japanese vessals.

[kiwimeetskiwi]

A Southern Tang dynasty Lou chuan ("tower ship") fights off a Sung war junk. From "Fighting ships of the Far East Part 1"

 warship!!!.PNG   42.66K   7 downloads

You can kind of see it in the bottom left.

Here's a link. http://www.chinahist...inese-warships/

Hope that helps.

Edited by kiwimeetskiwi, 24 July 2010 - 10:44 AM.