199 replies to this topic

[Iamnick]

1 Where did you get the info that Zhuge and the others had different objectives?

2 How do you know ZL only received surrenders? I'm not sure if you meant that the others did the fighting while ZL would formally come and accept their surrenders or that everyone in ZL's way surrendered to him thus it was impossible for him to fight.

3 Why would it matter if Huang Zhong is in the van or not? Even if none of the big name generals were with ZL, ZL is never going to be personally fighting on the battlefield since he does not seem to be physically able. Thus if we apply this logic then all commanders who cannot be on the frontlines cannot ever be credited.

I think Huang Zhong was already with Liu Bei. It was Zhang Fei, Zhuge Liang & Zhao Yun that came with the reinforcements. Zl was with Zhao Yun for some of it before they separated and took different routes before they all met Liu Bei.

1. ZZTJ, and each of their individual sgz's.

2. Any fighting that would have occured with the main body of troops would have been done by Huang Zhong, andnot Zhuge. We see this again with Ma Su, except that at that time, Zhuge was in charge of military affairs. I don't believe that Zhuge was made Grand Army Advisor (I forget the exact name) until after Hanzhong. Since Zhao Yun and Zhang Fei were sent out to fight those who were not surrendering, and since Huang Zhong led the van, one can summize that any fighting done would be done by them. I don't know if Huang did see combat during this or not.

3. I don't beleive that Zhuge had anything to do with the battles, other than leading the troops to Liu Bei, which is what it states in his bio. Zhuge had nothing to do with the military at this time, and had no experiance in the past.

4. Huang Zhong did follow Bei into Shu, but ZZTJ states that Huang was also with the main body as they moved through Yi, so I believe that he met with them near the beginning of the invasion.

[sima old bandit]

1 My interpretation was that they all had the same objective from reading their bios & zztj, ie to lead the reinforcements to meet up with Liu Bei.

Could you quote the relevant passage that states ZL's objective was to first and foremost to meet up with Liu Bei and in control of logistics and supplies in contrast with the others?

2 Can also quote the passages which show Huang Zhong was in the van? I don't have access to the ZZTJ for this period other than Rafe's works which did not contain this info.

3 If not having previous experience in the military means you cannot have anything to do with battles how can anyone possibly circumvent this catch 22 situation?

Also minor note on campaign 3 it seems once he conquered wudu & yinping & Guo Huai retreated ZL returned. I just double checked ZZTJ & ZL's bio and it doesn't mention ZL running out of supplies.

[Liu Bei228]

Reading all your post sounds like a real pain so tell me what are you two saying now cause I want in?

[Yun]

Reading all your post sounds like a real pain so tell me what are you two saying now cause I want in?

Again, LiuBei228, when you wish to learn you have to be willing to stretch your brain a little. Don't give up just because your head starts to ache.

[Liu Bei228]

Ok then, am just ried lately and it seems like more work for my brain to do.

Edited by Liu Bei228, 05 June 2006 - 08:45 AM.

[Wo Long]

Can someone give me a bit of information on Zhuge Liang as far as administrative duties go? I know he's extremely overrated in the novel and that he wasn't a great strategist (above average at best), but I have heard that he was a great civil administrator. Yet, unlike battles, his great feats in this area are rarely highlighted.

What I mainly want to know is what, if anything, did he do that was revolutionary, what was the main focus of his administration (farming, expansion, technology, etc), and who were some of his most important administrators?

[Liu Bei228]

Am been searching for stuff like that for a long time.

[sima old bandit]

Can someone give me a bit of information on Zhuge Liang as far as administrative duties go? I know he's extremely overrated in the novel and that he wasn't a great strategist (above average at best), but I have heard that he was a great civil administrator. Yet, unlike battles, his great feats in this area are rarely highlighted.

What I mainly want to know is what, if anything, did he do that was revolutionary, what was the main focus of his administration (farming, expansion, technology, etc), and who were some of his most important administrators?

Read his SGZ biography:
http://www.3kingdoms...p;threadid=9127

[wolong1212]

as far as history goes, its very different from the tv series "San guo yan yi" but still zhuge liang won a few of the most famous battles in chinese history like the battle of chibi. basesd on tat, zhuge liang is still pretty extraordinary.

[Yun]

Zhuge Liang didn't win Chibi - Zhou Yu did. Zhuge's role in the whole campaign was marginal, serving only as Liu Bei's envoy to Sun Quan during the forming of the Sun-Liu alliance.

The "summoning the wind" story is just a myth invented by the novel to give Zhuge Liang a pivotal role.

[Liu Bei228]

I know am going off the topic but, I think Huang Gai deserves credit for Chi Bi, it was his idea that won it and Zhou Yu even said he was responsible for it.

[Yun]

True - the "being beaten" trick didn't happen in history (Huang Gai actually faked a defection without having been beaten beforehand), but the "fire attack" trick certainly was suggested by Huang Gai.

One thing I'm not sure about though: When Huang Gai (in Zhou Yu's SGZ biography) suggests "可烧而走也" as a way of defeating Cao Cao's fleet, does the 走 refer to Cao's fleet or the Sun-Liu fleet? I originally thought Huang was proposing that the Sun-Liu fleet beats a retreat when Cao's fleet is set on fire, because the Sun-Liu fleet is outnumbered and needs to get away without being pursued. But then I thought perhaps the 走 means Cao Cao retreating after the fire attack.

[wolong1212]

summon of the wind may be just a story and battle was fought by zhou yu, but zhuge liang planned the attack.

[Ma Su]

summon of the wind may be just a story and battle was fought by zhou yu, but zhuge liang planned the attack.

No he didn't, there is no evidence he was even at the battle. His only noted thing during the entire thing was serving as envoy to Sun Quan. Zhou Yu, Cheng Pu and Liu Bei where the commanders and the credit for the planning is between Zhou Yu or Huang Gai

[wolong1212]

No he didn't, there is no evidence he was even at the battle. His only noted thing during the entire thing was serving as envoy to Sun Quan. Zhou Yu, Cheng Pu and Liu Bei where the commanders and the credit for the planning is between Zhou Yu or Huang Gai

oh, ur right