162 replies to this topic

[Chinaconqueror]

I've been reading an interesting chinese article about Qin's army. (if you can read chinese, it's at http://www.dxsbbs.com/showthread.php?threadid=662585)

It says that during the warring states period, ever since 359 BC when Qin started the Shangyang reform, the Qin army managed to kill 1.6 million soldiers from the 6 states in their expansion war.

In 230s, when Qinshihuang began his large scale campaign to unify China, the Qin army managed to wipe out almost 2 million soldiers from the 6 states.

Such a massive amounts of death was unprecedental in chinese history.

Does anyone know exactly what the total force of the Qin's army is ? Did it reach 1 million? What's the uniqueness of the Qin army? What makes it so powerful?

[General_Zhaoyun]

I think, the Qin army 's total force numbered around 600,000 thousands if I'm not wrong.. there was one war when Qin sent the total force of 600,000 to invade Zhao, defeating it at battle of Changping.

[Sephodwyrm]

According to Zhong Hua Wen Hua Chuan Zheng series, the Qin army numbered 2 million including the logistic forces. The effective fighting force was at 600000 to 1 million and the rest were support troops who are not direct participants of the battles.

What made the Qin army so powerful? There are many reasons for this.
1. The establishment of the military code which was strictly enforced in the army. It had two parts: reward the valiant soldiers and punish the cowards, no matter his rank or birth. This had serious consequences in the armies of Qin. At a time when armies grew larger, a disproportionate number of troops were drafted from the peasants (who were the so-called "wild" men, or Ye Ren, people living in the wilderness with no political power, unlike the countrymen or Guo Ren who could trace their ancestry to the nobility). These troops formed the bulk of the army. When one is able to motivate these men, the army would become truly powerful.
2. The Qin culture is warlike and aggressive. There is no other state that would witness 10000+ men being promoted after every major large scale battle. This happened for the Qin armies and her soldiers became fearless. Families of soldiers were reputed to be An Nan Le Si. They find peace to be hard and death to be celebratory. They would celebrate when there's war against the other states. It is one of the few instances in Chinese culture in which the warrior culture is epitomized and made into the state culture.
3. The Qin army is not only well motivated, but well armed. Millions of men, criminals and prisoners of war were enslaved in huge arsenals manufacturing weapons. The Qin, lacking significant iron, copper or tin deposits, were also very careful with their metal and set up an official post to ensure that no metal go to waste. The Qin culture also prevented the use of metals to make instruments for rituals or musical instruments. All would go for weapons or agricultural tools. The Qin get their ritual pieces by defeating other states.
4. The Qin army rarely have to worry about food when it comes to attacking other states. The Qin agriculture was extremely robust as supported by Shang Yang's reforms of emphasis on agriculture and heavy taxes for the merchants. The regions within the Pass (Guan Nei) was made fertile and productive through wise and long term investments in water works, and even the treacherous Zheng Guo was made to apply his genius in making the Canal of Zheng Guo which helped to create vast tracts of arable land to feed the armies of Qin. A well fed army fights better than a half-starving army.

What is unique about the Qin army?
1. The Qin army is the largest in the 7 states. Her armies are the most fearless, most aggressive and though it has suffered some huge defeats, their spirit remained indomitable and they helped the King Zheng of Qin to unify China.
2. The Qin army is known for their crossbowmen. Right...I have been influenced too much by hero, but from the terracotta army we see that there's an emphasis in ranged units with both archers and crossbowmen. Crossbows are manufactured in vast numbers in the manufacturies and were reputed to have replaceable parts.
3. The Qin army is well organized with a clear distinct hierarchy. A unit leader is responsible for his men, and his men are responsible to him. In any given moment, a Qin unit is entirely independent as he sought to kill the enemy and at the same time cohesive as breaking any military law means death. It is this willing to advance without fear and cohesiveness as an army that makes the Qin army powerful.
4. The Qin army is led by experienced generals. Bai Qi, Wang Jian, Wang Ben, Meng Tian, these are all generals who have fought campaigns after campaigns. Despite some reverses suffered by some of these generals, the soldiers trust their generals to carry them through for their reputation. The other states had no famous generals or even if they had, their rulers foolishly got rid of them.

I hope these help with your questions.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Great info, Sephodwyrm.. :D You must have read alot about the Qin army..

[thirdgumi]

Nice info Sephodwyrm. The Qin generals like Bai Qi and Wang Jian came from the lowest ranks of the army as simple soldires, they climbed all the way to general, shopping heads and collecting victories on the way. So, the Qin generals were veterans and experienced.

In a book I read about Qin Shi Huang Di, it said that the Qin military code was harsh. There was one code, it said:
When a squad leader die in the battle, the rest of squad members would be excuted, except if they could collect an enemies head they would be forgiven.
another one:
If during a battle, if a low rank general couldn't chop an enemy's head, he would be excuted.

Shang Yan made a system which made Qin people see war as a way to climb to better life. When a Qin male went to battle, usualy his family would say to him: - if you couldn't get something (a noble title at least), don't come back.-

All those was unseen in any other states.

[Sephodwyrm]

I think a statue should be made of Shang Yang...without him China might never be unified. In fact, I think we should make more statues of historical figures in ancient China.

[RollingWave]

Except that for the most part we aren't sure what those ancient ppl look like :P... drawings and statue of ppl aern't popular except maybe amoung emperors in ancient china

To give a deeper depth... the Qin's army was a mix of infantry/calvary and chariots, calvary were just at it's beginning stages so they werent' very plentiful and were mostly unarmored light cavs, infantry was the main battle forces and chariots were used as charge tanks when needed and commanding platforms.

[Sephodwyrm]

I am not sure on how Qin could dominate the battlefield apart from their superb motivation, discipline, equipment and logistic support. All the states tend to to use the same weapons and chariots, some states like Han and Chu had more iron and copper deposits than the state of Qin and thus had more armor and weapons for the troops. However, those are useless if the men are not courageous or motivated.

Qin armies after the reformation of Shang Yang does not take prisoners. The craze to claim heads to get a promotion made butchers out of every single men, and the training of the troops were probably equally ruthless to "dehumanize" them. This is my own speculations, by the way. But I believe it is due to this factor that the Qin killed so many people in her campaigns.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

. The Qin army is the largest in the 7 states. Her armies are the most fearless, most aggressive and though it has suffered some huge defeats, their spirit remained indomitable and they helped the King Zheng of Qin to unify China.

Actually Chu had the largest army of the seven states. They are recorded to have 1 million effective fighting men. Before the battle of Ma Lin, Wei had the second largest troops calculated to be around 700,000 men. Not surprisingly Chu is the largest state with an estimated population of 5 million at this time and Wei the second with 4 million population. Qin is third with nearly 3 million and an army of roughly 600,000 during this time.
But it grew as it expanded and its claimed to have 1 million by the time it conquered all of the other states. According to record, the Qin had over 300,000 troops in the north against the xiongnu. Some 500,000 in the south occupying Bai Ling(territory of Bai Yue including canton, Fu Jian...), 50,000 guarding the capital, and some 150,000 over the other warring states. So all together some 1 million troops.

2. The Qin army is known for their crossbowmen. Right...I have been influenced too much by hero, but from the terracotta army we see that there's an emphasis in ranged units with both archers and crossbowmen. Crossbows are manufactured in vast numbers in the manufacturies and were reputed to have replaceable parts.

Surprisingly, according to archeological research, Qin's crossbow did not have bronze mechanism used by other states, so Qin actually had inferior crossbow to those of the other klingdoms, this is a shock especially since Qin emphasize on miltiary efficiency.

[Shadowfax]

How do they keep an army of 1 million men if their population is only 5 million?

[thirdgumi]

How do they keep an army of 1 million men if their population is only 5 million?

I guess beside the plitical system of Qin which boosted the production, also the legalist philosofy was "all the population would be soldiers", it was a bit exagerated but the Qin prepared the enitre population for war by harshing thier lifes and put every able body of men warring when needed.

[cat]

In a book I read about Qin Shi Huang Di, it said that the Qin military code was harsh.

do you have the name of this book?

Any estimated numbers of crossbowmen usage of the Qin? ..tyring to get a picture of them being used in an average battle.

[Sephodwyrm]

If you want a distinct martial culture, I think the Mongols are the best example. Every man is a potential soldier, and the brave warriors are the venerated men. The Qin is an extreme example of Chinese militarism. It was never seen before again. Even Shi Huangdi has a streak of pacifism in him as well. After unifying China he collected the weapons and casted the 12 bronze giants with it. Maybe he should have kept the weapons and build bigger ones...who knows what might happen...