162 replies to this topic

[brightness]

So Brightness never came back after 30 posts and the exams huh? I just read his posts. Very interesting points.

Sorry about the long time-out . . . I thought my account got locked out during the server outage/migration . . . and never got around to follow up. It's been quite a busy year with my business.

[brightness]

Great set of numbers! Very informative. I just want to toss in my couple cents regarding the following two points:

1. Male prisoners when doing heavy labor, eat half dou at morning and 1/3dou at night.(Food distribution law)
This record go with Mozi's record of a soldier daily food. That every soldier eat 5/6dou food per day.

So an army of 600,000 will eat 50,000dan food a day and 18.25 million dan a year. Basically the same amount of Qin's low limit food production of a normal year.
A simple calculation shows that Sima Cuo bring about two years of food with him when he start the campaign against Chu. Wang Jian's campaign of conquering Chu also last two years. So that a big campaign need several years of preparation.

There is a huge difference between the amount of food in-kind tax that could be collected in all villages throughout the country vs. the amount of food that could be delivered to the war front in the interior hills. Based on the number above, 1 dan = 10 dou, a person working hard labor consumes 5/6 dou a day, and a porter by definition can carry only two dan. That means when transporting food, the porter consumes about 4% of what he is carrying every day. The two meals would take a lot of time to prepare from fires built from sticks gathered from the field, and there was little night-time illumination. So the porting team probably could only walk 5-6hrs a day . . . at 2-3miles per hour. That means a 4% reduction in food every 10-20 miles traversed on land. Wheeled carts would work better on flat land, but let's not forget that there was no pneumatic tires back then, and carts would require carpenters to travel with the team; also the big source of Qin food supply was Sichuan, which was extremely hilly on the rims . . . porters with a bamboo stick on their shoulders are a common sight even to this day. Draft animals may help if there is forage along the path, but wild grass is quickly consumed when we are talking about armies with hundreds of thousands of people moving through. In fact, as late as the 30-years war, Wallenstein's 200,000 army had to be kept on the move precisely because otherwise both the men and the animals would starve. Once wild forage is gone, draft animals cosume even more food than they are worth. The 4% loss every 10-20miles is assuming the porting team is entirely made up of porters . . . let's not forget the officers and bureacrats that have to travel with the porting team, lest there be deserters. 1 guard per 5 porters increase the food requirement by another per cent, so does a cook with his field kitchen on his back. Before the age of computers and punch-card tabulating machines, heck, paper wasn't even invented at the time of Qin, all book keeping had to be done on bamboo strips . . . food in-kind tax collected from most villages would probably have to be moved back and forth between several different storage locations before they are finally delivered to the front-line . . . just because the computational power for manipulating "pointers" were not there. The whole situation rapidly becomes a "rocket launch problem": the final payload has to be a tiny fraction of the whole rocket because all that fuel tank weight has to be pushed by the initial fuel consumption. When it comes to power projection over land (like Changpin was), the ability to deliver food to sustain the troops must have been extremely limited. Also, 600,000 troops in one location for a whole year may run out of firewood to cook their meals. Cities of that size didn't come about until Tang and Song, and those cities were located on major rivers, relying on barges for food and fuel transportation.

The major means of transportation to battle field is through water.It's safer and need much less labor. Qin has an advantage that they hold both Yangtze and Yellow river's upstream.

Exactly! That's why I have been saying Qin's success had a lot to do with geography. It was much easier for Qin to invade Chu down the river from Sichuan, relying on barges to float food down, than for Chu to do the reverse and have to rely on porters.

Edited by brightness, 04 March 2008 - 09:00 PM.

[Sleepybeggar]

I'm still amazed that the Qin weapon smiths stream lined production of the weapons

If you want a distinct martial culture, I think the Mongols are the best example. Every man is a potential soldier, and the brave warriors are the venerated men. The Qin is an extreme example of Chinese militarism. It was never seen before again. Even Shi Huangdi has a streak of pacifism in him as well. After unifying China he collected the weapons and casted the 12 bronze giants with it. Maybe he should have kept the weapons and build bigger ones...who knows what might happen...

where are those giants? with him in the tomb?

[nicholas]

ya i also wondering where did the 12 bronze giant gone to..... so far no one have say anything abt it ... after e-pang palace is being burn down and Qin Shi Huang Di is dead ...

[NEOBRICK]

If ur Chinese is good enough,I suggest u watch this documentary,the reborned legions,复活的军团.It has most of the details about the rising of Qin Empire you need.
http://www.tudou.com...x.do?lid=345387

[EricRosenfield]

This has been an amazing resource on the Qin military! It's hard finding this kind of information for those of us who don't read Chinese, so thank you all!

I have one question about something that confuses me. I've seen multiple references to the Qin army having both archers and crossbowmen. My question, why have both? Did the two serve together or were they used differently? Was there a strategic reason for having both, or was it something like a simple lack of enough crossbows for everybody?

I'm very curious. Thanks again!

[JohnD]

This has been an amazing resource on the Qin military! It's hard finding this kind of information for those of us who don't read Chinese, so thank you all!

I have one question about something that confuses me. I've seen multiple references to the Qin army having both archers and crossbowmen. My question, why have both? Did the two serve together or were they used differently? Was there a strategic reason for having both, or was it something like a simple lack of enough crossbows for everybody?

I'm very curious. Thanks again!

Archers have a longer range than crossbowmen.

[EricRosenfield]

Then what was the advantage of the crossbow? Load faster?

[TheAznValedictorian]

Archers have a longer range than crossbowmen.

Then what was the advantage of the crossbow? Load faster?

Actually, it seems like good crossbows have a slightly greater range than bows. Adding to the advantage of the crossbows would be the small amount of time that it takes for one to train the crossbowmen.
However, having regular composite-recurve bows is still a good idea, since they have a higher rate of fire than crossbows. They also still have some penetration capabilities.

Edited by TheAznValedictorian, 17 April 2010 - 07:27 PM.

[28th of Ying]

I've been reading an interesting chinese article about Qin's army. (if you can read chinese, it's at http://www.dxsbbs.com/showthread.php?threadid=662585)

It says that during the warring states period, ever since 359 BC when Qin started the Shangyang reform, the Qin army managed to kill 1.6 million soldiers from the 6 states in their expansion war.

In 230s, when Qinshihuang began his large scale campaign to unify China, the Qin army managed to wipe out almost 2 million soldiers from the 6 states.

Such a massive amounts of death was unprecedental in chinese history.

Does anyone know exactly what the total force of the Qin's army is ? Did it reach 1 million? What's the uniqueness of the Qin army? What makes it so powerful?

The Qin's population is about six million, it produces three millions soldier. Everyman is a soldier, it is integrate part economy, political, and military force. The mass production in manufacturing weapon equal to today standard. The water engineering is one best for it's time. Highway stress across mountain top and cliff, it is engineering wonder for it's time. Why are Qin army so successful, it have to do hard work ethic. The key is best technology, economy, and military. The is WHY, the SEAL OF QIN is MANDATE OF HEAVEN, whoever hold seal is rightful ruler China. It is not the Seal of Qin that is important but rather it is knowledge, it is the Mandate of Tao.

[Mei Houwang]

The Qin's population is about six million, it produces three millions soldier. Everyman is a soldier, it is integrate part economy, political, and military force. The mass production in manufacturing weapon equal to today standard. The water engineering is one best for it's time. Highway stress across mountain top and cliff, it is engineering wonder for it's time. Why are Qin army so successful, it have to do hard work ethic. The key is best technology, economy, and military. The is WHY, the SEAL OF QIN is MANDATE OF HEAVEN, whoever hold seal is rightful ruler China. It is not the Seal of Qin that is important but rather it is knowledge, it is the Mandate of Tao.

I must express doubt to your first claim. The Qin could not possibly have three million soldiers out of six million unless they drafted not just all able-bodied men, but all able-bodied women as well. Although there is some evidence that the Han dynasty did this to a small degree, I do not think there is evidence of the Qin doing this. If so, they would probably have done it like the Han dynasty, which is not significantly. Typically, only a fourth of the population consists of able-bodied men fit for military service. The rest are women and people too old/young to fight.

[mariusj]

I must express doubt to your first claim. The Qin could not possibly have three million soldiers out of six million unless they drafted not just all able-bodied men, but all able-bodied women as well. Although there is some evidence that the Han dynasty did this to a small degree, I do not think there is evidence of the Qin doing this. If so, they would probably have done it like the Han dynasty, which is not significantly. Typically, only a fourth of the population consists of able-bodied men fit for military service. The rest are women and people too old/young to fight.

And I like to add to what Mei said about the 1/4, as that is an ideal situtation where we just population of able bodied men; in fact if you consider all the other things you need to run your country even at bare minimum, the mobilization should be far less then 1/4, simply b/c you need people to 1) administrate the state 2) continue to farm 3) produce and repair military needs.
In my opinion, I would be dancing if 1/8 of my population could be converted into fighting men including those doing logistics, and that is already an all in situation where you have only two way out and that is 1) you destroy your opponent or 2) you are utterly crushed.
Just think of the amount of food you need to feed the army, you need mills to grind flour and make lasting rations, you need men to move stored food from storage and repair these, wheel smith to repair wheels unless you intend to carry these rations, you need loggers to make carts and other instruments or vessels whether or not you use cart or plan to carry these, you need black smith to make these axes.
Men power takes a second seat in war, no matter how many able bodied men you have, unequipped and unfed they are sheep for slaughter.
If Qin had 1 million soldiers I would be impressed, let alone 3. [From your figure of 6 million population that is]

[brightness]

The Qin's population is about six million, it produces three millions soldier. Everyman is a soldier, it is integrate part economy, political, and military force. The mass production in manufacturing weapon equal to today standard. The water engineering is one best for it's time. Highway stress across mountain top and cliff, it is engineering wonder for it's time. Why are Qin army so successful, it have to do hard work ethic. The key is best technology, economy, and military. The is WHY, the SEAL OF QIN is MANDATE OF HEAVEN, whoever hold seal is rightful ruler China. It is not the Seal of Qin that is important but rather it is knowledge, it is the Mandate of Tao.

I agree with MHW that the per centage of population that can be placed under arms is much much less, due to sheer logistics. Even among the male draftees, the majority would have to be porters and transportation gang, not actual fighting men in arms.

I have my doubts regarding the supposed Qin economic success. It was a proto- totalitarian state, with the government trying to manage the minutia of people's lives. Of all the totalitarian/fascist states that we have more reliable records of, there has never been an economic success story (or success in any other terms except for in extremely short-run military goals). All the 20th century experiments to duplicate the Qin grain-and-war economic model failed despite much more advanced communication and propaganda technologies 2000+ years later, and failed miserably in very short order. Sure, one may marvel at the Qin gallery roads, canal and straight-way to the north the same way that one might marvel at the Autobahn built by the Nazis in the 1930's; however, let's not forget, not a single VW had been sold to a German consumer until after WWII. The government sponsored factory was simply too inefficient to make them affordable like Ford and GM could despite the supposed German efficiency. Consequently, there simply weren't enough Germans who had cars to run on the Autobahn until long after WWII. In other words, even the much vaunted Autobahn built in the 1930's was a waste of resources.

I'm still of the opinion that Qin was an economic basket case, thanks to all the government intervention. The people of Qin lived off looting the other states. The cheaper looted goods arriving in Qin further bankrupted what producers there had been in Qin (just like in Roman time, and to a degree today's US domestic manufacturing being destroyed by cheap imports). More or more Qin peons had to resort to government jobs (the military being the primary one) in order to make a living. This is a rather common motif for ancient civilizations, just like the "war-like" tribes on northwest fridge of Indian subcontinent and Arabia, they were not economic or technologically advanced (except for in specific very effective weapon when they did succeed militarily for a short time) at the time of conquest.

So, did the Chinese unification experience prove that eventually the more barbaric totalitarian regime wins in the end? Not really. Unlike a computer game that ends after you paint the entire map your own color, real life goes on after "unification." The Qin "unification" of China proved to be an utter disaster for all the people in various states of modern day China; it was a disaster for the people of Qin, who supposedly labored for 130+ years after ShangYang's reforms in order to achieve the ultimate goal, slaughtering and dying in the millions in the process, only to have the new universal regime overthrown after only 13 years, then the slaughtering of hundreds of thousands of more Qin people by the invading armies from elsewhere. What kind of success is that? It too was a disaster for the Qin royal household/lineage, which lasted over 600 years before "unification" only to be utterly eradicated to the last man a decade and half later. What about the bureaucratic intriguers who were the real driving force behind the "I'm the king of the world" enterprise? In that regard it too was a disaster, for ShangYang, LuBuWei, LiSi and ZhaoGao.

That is the intellectual framework we need to understand. The 130+year endeavor by Qin to conquer all other states was not a success story, but an utter disaster for all involved.

As to why Qin Army had disproportional battlefield success vis others, there are several reasons:

1. The most important is Geography. Like Howard and others mentioned earlier, Qin is naturally easy to defend to begin with due to the mountain passes being the only access route from the east. All major Chinese rivers running from west to east tremendously helped Qin army invading the other states down-stream.

The 10-year "unification war" by YingZhen in the 232-222BC was re-fought between LiuBang and XiangYu a mere two decades later (another reason why Qin "unification" was not at all the end of the "game"). Once again, the party who controlled the northwest fulcrum won the fight, largely due to logistics.

2. Bad operational decisions on the part of the other six states, most importantly Chu, Zhao and Qi. Part of the reasons behind those bad decisions was also related to logistics. For example, Zhao at Changping changing over from LianPo's defense to ZhaoKuo's offense was the desire to shorten the war and avoid the insurmountable difficulty of getting food to feed the garrison. Wang Jian's final success against Chu was once again because Chu disbanded large parts of its army to simplify logistics.

3. Qin may have been the first to master Sarissa. This is a new theory on my part. What we see at the QSHD tomb, there were phalanx armed with Sarissa (very very long spear, measuring 17-23ft, 6-7meters). It's the same weapon that Alexander used to conquer the "known world." Massed chariots became completely obsolete if your opponent had well trained phalanx wielding Sarissa, as amply proved by Alexander's success against numerically far superior Persian army. Yet, QSHD tomb also had chariot array . . . which means Qin's opponents did not have well trained Sarissa phalanx. Massed chariots became obsolete in the West immediately after Phillip and Alexander's Sarissa arrays showed up (with adequate flank protection by combined arms of course). Massed chariots became obsolete in China at the end of the Warring State period. Alexander showed up in Afghanistan in the 310'sBC. Qin may well have been the first Chinese state to acquire that technology and put to good use. That may well explain SiMa Qian's "strange formations" at ChangPing, that was able to drive through and divide Zhao's supposedly 400k army with a mere 20k soldiers. May also explain why LianPo's initial combats with Qin in the open were disasterously unfavorable to Zhao and had to abandon open field combat altogether and withdraw into forts behind high walls. Also explains why ZhaoKuo's "paper manuever" using formation head counts fell apart when put into practice in the field; the Sarissa phalanx would sweep much larger infantry arrays and chariot arrays from the field, just like Alexander's did.

Sarissa was not just a longer spear. It was two metal tipped spears made with hard wood, and joined together in the middle with a bronze lock mechanism. When the two parts are joined together, it's much much longer than any single-stick spear. A constant problem with pikemen/pole-arm formation (as late as late mid-ages) is that troops on manuever in the field would shorten the sticks to make their own lives easier, because most war casualties before th 20th century were not from actual combat but from disease, exhaustion, starvation, etc.. So cutting short the stick would help the individual soldier's survival; that is, until real battle is joined, then during the "pushing of pikes" the side with the shorter sticks came out, well, literally holding the short end of the stick, so to speak. Phillip (Alexander's father) invented Sarissa to solve this problem, and it proved a tremendous success (so long as the flanks are covered). The first 4-5 ranks pointing forward could push over anyone not similarly armed; the rear ranks holding the Sarissa upward not only could deflect incoming arrows/bolts but also obscure enemy observation of friendly reserve deployment behind the lines. It's the special formation that conquered the western world under Alexander, and may well have been a major factor in Qin's battlefield success in 260BC and beyond.

[Mei Houwang]

3. Qin may have been the first to master Sarissa. This is a new theory on my part. What we see at the QSHD tomb, there were phalanx armed with Sarissa (very very long spear, measuring 17-23ft, 6-7meters). It's the same weapon that Alexander used to conquer the "known world." Massed chariots became completely obsolete if your opponent had well trained phalanx wielding Sarissa, as amply proved by Alexander's success against numerically far superior Persian army. Yet, QSHD tomb also had chariot array . . . which means Qin's opponents did not have well trained Sarissa phalanx. Massed chariots became obsolete in the West immediately after Phillip and Alexander's Sarissa arrays showed up (with adequate flank protection by combined arms of course). Massed chariots became obsolete in China at the end of the Warring State period. Alexander showed up in Afghanistan in the 310'sBC. Qin may well have been the first Chinese state to acquire that technology and put to good use. That may well explain SiMa Qian's "strange formations" at ChangPing, that was able to drive through and divide Zhao's supposedly 400k army with a mere 20k soldiers. May also explain why LianPo's initial combats with Qin in the open were disasterously unfavorable to Zhao and had to abandon open field combat altogether and withdraw into forts behind high walls. Also explains why ZhaoKuo's "paper manuever" using formation head counts fell apart when put into practice in the field; the Sarissa phalanx would sweep much larger infantry arrays and chariot arrays from the field, just like Alexander's did.

Sarissa was not just a longer spear. It was two metal tipped spears made with hard wood, and joined together in the middle with a bronze lock mechanism. When the two parts are joined together, it's much much longer than any single-stick spear. A constant problem with pikemen/pole-arm formation (as late as late mid-ages) is that troops on manuever in the field would shorten the sticks to make their own lives easier, because most war casualties before th 20th century were not from actual combat but from disease, exhaustion, starvation, etc.. So cutting short the stick would help the individual soldier's survival; that is, until real battle is joined, then during the "pushing of pikes" the side with the shorter sticks came out, well, literally holding the short end of the stick, so to speak. Phillip (Alexander's father) invented Sarissa to solve this problem, and it proved a tremendous success (so long as the flanks are covered). The first 4-5 ranks pointing forward could push over anyone not similarly armed; the rear ranks holding the Sarissa upward not only could deflect incoming arrows/bolts but also obscure enemy observation of friendly reserve deployment behind the lines. It's the special formation that conquered the western world under Alexander, and may well have been a major factor in Qin's battlefield success in 260BC and beyond.

I've heard of claims in which QinShiHuang's armies was armed like the Greek phalanx or medieval pikemen. However, a while back Kenneth mentioned the possibility that the unearthed long pikes might be for charioteers, rather than infantry. Thus, I am wavering on which side to take. What is your take on this? I also haven't uncovered any information on the amount of these "long pikes" in Qin Shihuang's tomb. If the information is available, then it would solve the dilemma. High amounts of long pikes would mean it's for infantry (Qin Shi Huang's tomb was mostly infantry). Small amounts of long pikes would mean it's for chariots.

Also, you say that the Sarissa was actually two poles with a bronze lock mechanism, and you labeled the Qin pike as a Sarissa. Are you saying that the Qin pike was similarly designed? Because I've found no mention of this.

So cutting short the stick would help the individual soldier's survival; that is, until real battle is joined, then during the "pushing of pikes" the side with the shorter sticks came out, well, literally holding the short end of the stick, so to speak.

Hah! Very well said.

Edited by Mei Houwang, 29 September 2010 - 12:10 AM.

[brightness]

I've heard of claims in which QinShiHuang's armies was armed like the Greek phalanx or medieval pikemen. However, a while back Kenneth mentioned the possibility that the unearthed long pikes might be for charioteers, rather than infantry. Thus, I am wavering on which side to take. What is your take on this? I also haven't uncovered any information on the amount of these "long pikes" in Qin Shihuang's tomb. If the information is available, then it would solve the dilemma. High amounts of long pikes would mean it's for infantry (Qin Shi Huang's tomb was mostly infantry). Small amounts of long pikes would mean it's for chariots.

IMHO, the really long ones are for infantry; i.e. Sarissa Phalanx. Pole-arms generally come in three lengths:
1. body length, 5-6ft. These are effective melee weapons and cavalry weapons

2. 1.5x body length, about 9ft. These are standard Greek Phalanx weapon, and pushing of pikes of the late mid-ages. Lengths beyond this would be hard to carry during march, getting caught on trees overhead etc. Most marching needs to be in shade in order not to suffer heat exhaustion. This length is still usable as cavalry weapon but mostly only for jousting-like straight charging. Swinging something like this while mounted would become difficult

3. 3x body length, about 17-23ft. That's about the maximum length a person can hold leveled, while with both feet solidly on the ground, due to the center of gravity being so far away from the holder's arms. During marching, the Sarissa would have to come in two pieces. I don't think mounted troops could use something that long while the horse or cart is moving under them constantly tilting over bumps etc without losing balance. That eventually proved the down-fall of massed Chariots, after reigning the battle field for centuries, when they finally faced Sarissa.


In the tomb, there are arrays of infantry with hands curved as if holding long sticks. The side-facing ranks are also indicative of the difficulty with which the formation would face when turning . . . which is the one short-coming of Sarissa.

Also, you say that the Sarissa was actually two poles with a bronze lock mechanism, and you labeled the Qin pike as a Sarissa. Are you saying that the Qin pike was similarly designed? Because I've found no mention of this.

Yes. There are many small bronze tubes on the ground near the arrays. Some think they are tubes for looping horse straps. I don't think so. Why would the ancients want to lacerate their horses with metal tubes? Leather straps would be perfectly good. Many of the tubes are the perfect shape and size for joining two sticks together, just like in Sarissa!

Hah! Very well said.

Thanks . . . gotta have some levity :-)