102 replies to this topic

[Karakhan]

it

really? source?

The same source I've mentioned in other threads. Go read Dru Gladney's book "Muslim Chinese".. it is probably the most comprehensive and most authoritative study on the Hui nationality.

its not like"ok,huis gets more benefits,therefore i will become a hui now" it does not work like that,you think the government just let people chose whatever ethnic they want to be?

this is not a question of how it works. It is a fact that since the government started applying benefits to minorities, people such as those with the surname "Ma" attempted to reclassify themselves as Hui. The population surge in the 70's and 80's testify to this reclassification as the numbers are beyond what the birth rate numbers existing population is able to produce

its not a fabrication by the government. its a bloody fact that we huis have ancestors from arabs,persians and turkic muslims.

Some Hui's, not all Hui's. It is a fact that there were conversions done. It is a fact that there were conversions done in Yunnan, which probably explains why there are Bai speaking Hui.

In the end you can grab a bunch of pictures of Hui's who look different to prove your point, but it's easy to grab a bunch of Hui's who do look Han to prove my point. The truth is in numbers and history. Ming Loyalist is right.. not every Hui is like those from Ningxia. And it is a FACT that both the Soviets and Chinese have constructed nationalities.

read:
Relational Alterity: Constructing Dungan (Hui), Uygur, and Kazakh Identities across China, Central Asia, and Turkey

Enmeshed Civilizations? Chinese and Islamic Creation Myths among the Hui Muslim Chinese
Dru Gladney, University of Hawaii, East-West Center

and

http://www2.hawaii.e...es/dialogic.pdf

[DearCoolZ]

The same source I've mentioned in other threads. Go read Dru Gladney's book "Muslim Chinese".. it is probably the most comprehensive and most authoritative study on the Hui nationality.
this is not a question of how it works. It is a fact that since the government started applying benefits to minorities, people such as those with the surname "Ma" attempted to reclassify themselves as Hui. The population surge in the 70's and 80's testify to this reclassification as the numbers are beyond what the birth rate numbers existing population is able to produce
Some Hui's, not all Hui's. It is a fact that there were conversions done. It is a fact that there were conversions done in Yunnan, which probably explains why there are Bai speaking Hui.

In the end you can grab a bunch of pictures of Hui's who look different to prove your point, but it's easy to grab a bunch of Hui's who do look Han to prove my point. The truth is in numbers and history. Ming Loyalist is right.. not every Hui is like those from Ningxia. And it is a FACT that both the Soviets and Chinese have constructed nationalities.

read:
Relational Alterity: Constructing Dungan (Hui), Uygur, and Kazakh Identities across China, Central Asia, and Turkey

Enmeshed Civilizations? Chinese and Islamic Creation Myths among the Hui Muslim Chinese
Dru Gladney, University of Hawaii, East-West Center

and

http://www2.hawaii.e...es/dialogic.pdf

let alone all these books and studies,they are only good for studies.
i was born into a hui family,i grow up in a hui community,i know what my people look like. even with all these converted hans,still doesn't change the fact that huis had ancestors from arab,persia and other central asian countries.

[Karakhan]

let alone all these books and studies,they are only good for studies.
i was born into a hui family,i grow up in a hui community,i know what my people look like. even with all these converted hans,still doesn't change the fact that huis had ancestors from arab,persia and other central asian countries.

there's a difference between academic research and personal bias.

[DearCoolZ]

there's a difference between academic research and personal bias.

on what ground am i biased?


there are chinese records of persian and arabs traders came to china and married to local han females. bias?,i think not. t

there are many huis from my city that looks quite different from the hans. bias?,i think not.

Huis exsisted ever since the persian,arabs traders arrived. zheng he was a hui,and he exsisted way b4 PRC came to power,so is not a modern creation.

Most of the northern ethnic populations in China, (e.g., Hui, Uygur, and Mongolian) were recently established (<1,000 years ago), with extensive admixture with Caucasian and Central Asian populations (CAS) (Wang 1994);

http://www.pubmedcen...i?artid=1226206

The origin of Hui nationality can be dated back to the 7th century A.D when Arabian and Persian merchants came to China for business expansion and then settled down in some southeastern coastal cities such as Guangzhou and Quanzhou; after several hundred years’ development, those people gradually became part of Hui nationality. In addition, in early 13th century A.D, a large number of middle Asians, Persians and Arabians were driven by wars to northwestern China and they gradually formed Hui nationality after assimilating with Han, Uygur and Mongolian nationality through marriage and religion.

http://en.chinabroad.../125@203862.htm

Edited by DearCoolZ, 25 April 2006 - 08:51 PM.

[Karakhan]

on what ground am i biased?
there are chinese records of persian and arabs traders came to china and married to local han females. bias?,i think not.

there are many huis from my city that looks quite different from the hans. bias?,i think not.

Huis exsisted ever since the persian,arabs traders arrived. zheng he was a hui,and he exsisted way b4 PRC came to power,so is not a modern creation.

And yet you continue to say the same things despite evidence being presented. Did you even bother reading the links I provided?

Just because you are part Hui does not mean you are the ultimate authority on the Hui people. By that logic, anyone who is American automatically knows more than say, a European who dedicated his life studying Americans. Sorry, but that doesn't count and it is a form of bias.

Muslim Chinese are well documented, but it does not mean that every Hui of today are the same as the Hui of the past. I suggest you do a better job of challenging the academic sources rather than dismissing them outright and repeating the same things you've said before.

[DearCoolZ]

And yet you continue to say the same things despite evidence being presented. Did you even bother reading the links I provided?

Just because you are part Hui does not mean you are the ultimate authority on the Hui people. By that logic, anyone who is American automatically knows more than say, a European who dedicated his life studying Americans. Sorry, but that doesn't count and it is a form of bias.

Muslim Chinese are well documented, but it does not mean that every Hui of today are the same as the Hui of the past. I suggest you do a better job of challenging the academic sources rather than dismissing them outright and repeating the same things you've said before.

you wanna evidences?

Most of the northern ethnic populations in China, (e.g., Hui, Uygur, and Mongolian) were recently established (<1,000 years ago), with extensive admixture with Caucasian and Central Asian populations (CAS) (Wang 1994);

http://www.pubmedcen...i?artid=1226206

The origin of Hui nationality can be dated back to the 7th century A.D when Arabian and Persian merchants came to China for business expansion and then settled down in some southeastern coastal cities such as Guangzhou and Quanzhou; after several hundred years’ development, those people gradually became part of Hui nationality. In addition, in early 13th century A.D, a large number of middle Asians, Persians and Arabians were driven by wars to northwestern China and they gradually formed Hui nationality after assimilating with Han, Uygur and Mongolian nationality through marriage and religion.

http://en.chinabroad.../125@203862.htm







回族起源的DNA证据


The DNA Evidence of the Origin of Hui

谢小冬　 陕雪梅　

摘　要：应用现代DNA分析技术，研究回族的起源、迁徙、融合、演变，探讨回族与其他民族之间的关系及有关发展规律，应是回族学研究的一个值得重视的方面。本文利用本实验室积累，综合国内外其他族群基因资料，以群体角度从DNA水平探讨了回族的起源、迁徙、演化等问题，证实了以往大多数人类学调查的结果，即回族与北方民族之间有相当大的融合。并且明确了回族中有较大比例的高加索人种的混杂程度，而这种基因流动应该主要与唐宋时期西域商贾、使者留居和蒙元时期蒙古人西征有密切关系，为传统的回族学研究提供了新视角。
关键词：回族学;民族学;人类基因组
分类号：C951　文献标识码：A
文章编号：1002-0586(2002)03-0075-04


http://www.wanfangda...0203/020322.htm

Edited by DearCoolZ, 25 April 2006 - 08:56 PM.

[Karakhan]

you wanna evidences?
Most of the northern ethnic populations in China, (e.g., Hui, Uygur, and Mongolian) were recently established (<1,000 years ago), with extensive admixture with Caucasian and Central Asian populations (CAS) (Wang 1994);
http://www.pubmedcen...i?artid=1226206
QUOTE
The origin of Hui nationality can be dated back to the 7th century A.D when Arabian and Persian merchants came to China for business expansion and then settled down in some southeastern coastal cities such as Guangzhou and Quanzhou; after several hundred years’ development, those people gradually became part of Hui nationality. In addition, in early 13th century A.D, a large number of middle Asians, Persians and Arabians were driven by wars to northwestern China and they gradually formed Hui nationality after assimilating with Han, Uygur and Mongolian nationality through marriage and religion.

http://en.chinabroad.../125@203862.htm

Sorry, they are not comprehensive studies. Furthermore, they are the same constructive histories that are mentioned in the links and studies I've provided. They provide no new information and is the same thing you've been spewing. I suggest you actually take the time to read the studies I have presented and argue against those if you want to continue a more academic discussion. The first link doesnt work btw.

[DearCoolZ]

Sorry, they are not comprehensive studies. Furthermore, they are the same constructive histories that are mentioned in the links and studies I've provided. They provide no new information and is the same thing you've been spewing. I suggest you actually take the time to read the studies I have presented and argue against those if you want to continue a more academic discussion. The first link doesnt work btw.

on what ground they are not comprehensive studies and yours are? its like saying"hey,my toys are bigger and better than yours"



here is the first link again

http://www.pubmedcen...i?artid=1226206




and not comprehensive studies?IMAO

Edited by DearCoolZ, 25 April 2006 - 09:07 PM.

[Karakhan]

on what ground they are not comprehensive studies and yours are? its like saying"hey,my toys are bigger and better than yours"
here is the first link again

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlere...i?artid=1226 history, genetics, etc. That is the difference.. you would've noticed it if you bothered reading the articles I presented. Secondly, the 3rd link you added on the DNA wasn't there when I completed my post. Unfortnately I cannot read Chinese, and secondly, any DNA test to prove the Hui's relations to Persians and Arabs would demand a background on whom the sample collection was based on. I.e if it was only done on Ningxia Hui..it would not be conclusive, as it would not be totally representative of Cantonese Hui, Mongol Hui206://http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/ar..., Mongol Hui206://http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/ar..., Mongol Hui206

no, there is a difference. The first link doesn't work. your second link is just a vague site that has a summary of the Hui's history.. it's the same information that has been constructed by the government. They do not offer any kind of comprehensive information on the, Bai Hui, etc. Likewise, if all the tests were only done on Bai Hui and concluded that they were mostly Bai..does that mean all the other Hui's are Bai? No. That's the problem with relying on selective DNA testing done on a broad ethnic group. Your attempt at using the 3rd link does nothing as the study only shows one sample group that is not entirely representative of the other Hui population.

I suggest you actually read the links I provided, other wise this thread is being wasted on the same things being wasted again, and we know what happened with the other threads where that occured.

[DearCoolZ]

no, there is a difference. The first link doesn't work. your second link is just a vague site that has a summary of the Hui's history.. it's the same information that has been constructed by the government. They do not offer any kind of comprehensive information on the history, genetics, etc. That is the difference.. you would've noticed it if you bothered reading the articles I presented. Secondly, the 3rd link you added on the DNA wasn't there when I completed my post. Unfortnately I cannot read Chinese, and secondly, any DNA test to prove the Hui's relations to Persians and Arabs would demand a background on whom the sample collection was based on. I.e if it was only done on Ningxia Hui..it would not be conclusive, as it would not be totally representative of Cantonese Hui, Mongol Hui, Bai Hui, etc. Likewise, if all the tests were only done on Bai Hui and concluded that they were mostly Bai..does that mean all the other Hui's are Bai? No. That's the problem with relying on selective DNA testing done on a broad ethnic group.

I suggest you actually read the links I provided, other wise this thread is being wasted on the same things being wasted again, and we know what happened with the other threads where that occured.

the first link is from american journal of human genetics. and is about biological espect of huis
and the second link is about the history espect of huis and the hisroty of huis is not constructed bt the PRC government as it has been recored in chinese historical books.


last,im not talking about the huis in canto and mongol and bai huis ,i'm talking about the huis lives in henan,shanxi,ningxia and gansu.

[Karakhan]

[quote name='DearCoolZ' post='4806569' date='Apr 26 2006, 02:12 AM']the first link is from american journal of human genetics. and is about biological espect of huis
and the second link is about the history espect of huis and the hisroty of huis is not constructed bt the PRC government as it has been recored in chinese historical books.
[quote]
last,im not talking about the huis in canto and mongol and bai huis ,i'm talking about the huis lives in henan,shanxi,ningxia and gansu.[/quote]

sure. My comments were about the Hui in general, and now you selectively talk only about henan, ningxia, etc Hui after I challenged the selective gene pool used for studies. The 2nd link is just that.. ancient records of Muslims in China, but it does not connect it with the Modern Huis. That's a government construction. You do realize that most of your questions are already answered in the pdf file I linked. Don't be lazy. The study includes analysis of Hui populations from a variety of areas, such as Yunnan, Ningxia, Beijing, etc.. the discrepancies on what they all say about their history, the creation and definition of a minority nationality by the state, and the political and economic aspects to why it was done.

[DearCoolZ]

sure. My comments were about the Hui in general, and now you selectively talk only about henan, ningxia, etc Hui after I challenged the selective gene pool used for studies. The 2nd link is just that.. ancient records of Muslims in China, but it does not connect it with the Modern Huis. That's a government construction. You do realize that most of your questions are already answered in the pdf file I linked. Don't be lazy. The study includes analysis of Hui populations from a variety of areas, such as Yunnan, Ningxia, Beijing, etc.. the discrepancies on what they all say about their history, the creation and definition of a minority nationality by the state, and the political and economic aspects to why it was done.

well,thats where most the huis lives,in niangxia,gansu,henan and shanxi.
every genetic studies is based on selective gene pools because its impossible to collect every genes from every cities and every individuals.

What i find your comments to be disrespectful is this.

ancient records of Muslims in China, but it does not connect it with the Modern Huis.

its not just records of muslims in china,its how most huis are descendanted from.
if you think huis are modern creations and not connect with the ancient persians,arabs traders who married with local hans,i might as well say that the ethnic han is also a modern creation and does not connect with the qins,tangs,songs, and etc. because by your logic they are just a bounch of historical books.

Edited by DearCoolZ, 25 April 2006 - 09:47 PM.

[Genghis_Khan]

well,thats where most the huis lives,in niangxia,gansu,henan and shanxi.
every genetic studies is based on selective gene pools because its impossible to collect every genes from every cities and every individuals.

What i find your comments to be disrespectful is this.
its not just records of muslims in china,its how most huis are descendanted from.
if you think huis are modern creations and not connect with the ancient persians,arabs traders who married with local hans,i might as well say that the ethnic han is also a modern creation and does not connect with the qins,tangs,songs, and etc. because by your logic they are just a bounch of historical books.

Sorry to interrupt you guys conversation. One question here, do you have any relatives of Persia or Arab ? Do you guys still contact each other ? I think that would be a greater prove of evidence.

[DearCoolZ]

Sorry to interrupt you guys conversation. One question here, do you have any relatives of Persia or Arab ? Do you guys still contact each other ? I think that would be a greater prove of evidence.

dude, the persians and arabs came to china at the time of silk road and tang dynasty,thats roughly 1000 years ago. how am i going to contact dead people?

[Karakhan]

well,thats where most the huis lives,in niangxia,gansu,henan and shanxi.
every genetic studies is based on selective gene pools because its impossible to collect every genes from every cities and every individuals.

What i find your comments to be disrespectful is this.
its not just records of muslims in china,its how most huis are descendanted from.
if you think huis are modern creations and not connect with the ancient persians,arabs traders who married with local hans,i might as well say that the ethnic han is also a modern creation and does not connect with the qins,tangs,songs, and etc. because by your logic they are just a bounch of historical books.

there is nothing disrespectful. And like the Hans, it is a cultural definition, not an ethnic one. Most here already agree with this. Furthermore using Ningxia, Gansu, Henan and Shanxi's numbers, they are not even the majority. The Hui population numbers nearly 10 million. Using 2002 figures, Hui population from those 4 put it 40-50%. Meaning, there is a significant amount of Hui outside of Central China.

I suggest you actually try reading the pdf file. You are again saying the same things. Again I repeat, not all Hui's are those descended from ancient Persians and Arabs. The state has connected a broad variety of Chinese Muslims to a common root, that is not necessarily true for every Hui.