21 replies to this topic

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Whether you are B*S* and L*, or me, people could tell from the numbers that I provided as to the decimated population in Sichuan, Huai River, Yangtze area etc. This post was taken from another post where you plain and simple did not believe that a Mongol invasion into Sichuan could have wiped out 99.9% of the Chinese population there.

The Mongols massacred the same way in Southern China as it did to Baghdad. There was no modification of of their bloodthirty killing behavior anywhere on the globe.

No one said that Sichuan's population wasn't decimated. You are making straw man arguments. The point been that your figures were plain and simple wrong. As were your number of 12 million. Your appeal to sentiments is a logical fallacy and has no ground in a history forum like this one.

About the Song-Yuan numbers, my point was HOW COULD IT BE POSSIBLE THAT THE MONGOLS HAD THE CENSUS NUMBER THE SAME YEAR IT SACKED HANGZHOU THE SONG CAPITAL. That's why I used my commonsense to say it was merely a number Song Dowager Empress surrendered on paper.

The Yuan Shi Shi Zu Ji explicitly mentioned that the Census was conducted in the September of 1276, while the Song surrendered in February. Its not a matter of assumption, its a matter that you haven't even read the passage and hence your entire theory is based on an erroneous and ungrounded assumption.

Edited by warhead, 13 February 2008 - 02:48 PM.

[ahxiang]

From what I've read, the Mongols under Kublai made various PR attempts to gain Chinese loyalty, such as employing Chinese like Liu Bingzhong and capturing Song Chinese merchants traveling across the border in the 1260s and early 1270s only to release them from captivity back to the Southern Song. Kublai also heavily and publicly rebuked some of his officers when it was learned that they executed captured Song generals without trial and investigation. Even when the Yuan moved in on Hangzhou, Kublai forbade the pillaging of the Song's tombs or imperial treasury, and exempted those who had surrendered (making Emperor Gong the "Duke of Ying"). Kublai wanted order, not chaos. Sure, cities that continually refused to submit to Kublai and other Mongols were destroyed. But to suggest that Southern China was leveled like Baghdad is a statement which you need to support with evidence. So far all you have is a hunch about the number of casualties, but a hunch is not evidence.

Eric (En Rui)

Suggest you re-read the paragraph above about the 50-YEAR ATTRITION WAR. It was not one single battle at AD 1276 and then Southern Song surrendered. Only the dowager empress surrendered. Two more emperors continued the war against the Mongols for more years to come.

And how do you expect the Mongols conduct a census in the same year the dowager empress surrendered but the war was staill raging on across southern China????

No time for more talk today. Next time.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

And how do you expect the Mongols conduct a census in the same year the dowager empress surrendered but the war was staill raging on across southern China????

Why wouldn't it? 7 months have lapsed, its plenty of time to conduct a census. And since when have you turned logical all of a sudden? The last time I checked, you were a blind follower of the ancient Chinese records. And the Yuan Shi explicitly mentioned it was a census taken by the yuan in September of 1276. You are wrong. Deal with it.

Edited by warhead, 13 February 2008 - 11:51 PM.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Moderators, please either move or delete the post above, it has nothing to do with the topic,(which is about the actual Southern Song population, not about Mongol massacre) and its an entire page of untranslated Chinese.

[Non-Han Nan Ban]

Ahxiang, I have deleted your non-sensical post.

Please do not produce another post like that again. For one, if you wanted someone to read in nothing but Chinese characters, there is a separate forum here for that. Two, what credible, scholarly source would be so bold as to make the claim that the Mongols slaughtered nearly 100 million people (as your "figures" suggest with dismally low population figures in different regions). In fact, I've heard of no credible scholarly historian who has made such a bizarre and unfounded claim. Yes, Mongols slaughtered people who didn't submit to their rule (and even spared some who didn't submit to their rule). There's no whitewashing that, and other members here aren't making such an attempt. However, your unfounded assumption that there were 50 solid years of attrition and unmitigated mass murder flies in the face of all the evidence and the carefully documented wars between the Mongol Empire and Song and then the Yuan and Song after 1271. There were large swaths of time in the mid 13th century that there was no fighting or major battles at all; a lot of the time there were just periodic raids. You completely disregard the political troubles of the Mongol Empire and Kublai being wrapped up in other affairs that forced him to turn his attention away from southern China for large amounts of time.

If you post anything that I find unsatisfactory, propagandic, and insulting to one's intelligence here again, I will raise your warning level, again. If you make another eye-catching outlandish claim that does not have a book or journal article citation right behind it, I will delete the content as nothing more than spam.

Eric (En Rui)

[ahxiang]

Ahxiang, I have deleted your non-sensical post.

Please do not produce another post like that again. For one, if you wanted someone to read in nothing but Chinese characters, there is a separate forum here for that. Two, what credible, scholarly source would be so bold as to make the claim that the Mongols slaughtered nearly 100 million people (as your "figures" suggest with dismally low population figures in different regions). In fact, I've heard of no credible scholarly historian who has made such a bizarre and unfounded claim. Yes, Mongols slaughtered people who didn't submit to their rule (and even spared some who didn't submit to their rule). There's no whitewashing that, and other members here aren't making such an attempt. However, your unfounded assumption that there were 50 solid years of attrition and unmitigated mass murder flies in the face of all the evidence and the carefully documented wars between the Mongol Empire and Song and then the Yuan and Song after 1271. There were large swaths of time in the mid 13th century that there was no fighting or major battles at all; a lot of the time there were just periodic raids. You completely disregard the political troubles of the Mongol Empire and Kublai being wrapped up in other affairs that forced him to turn his attention away from southern China for large amounts of time.

If you post anything that I find unsatisfactory, propagandic, and insulting to one's intelligence here again, I will raise your warning level, again. If you make another eye-catching outlandish claim that does not have a book or journal article citation right behind it, I will delete the content as nothing more than spam.

Eric (En Rui)

I cited a paper from another website that "warhead" complained about it. As requested by "PATTIE", I then transcribed some passages into English, and emphasized only the passages that related to Song population - namely, Cambridge Chinese History's account about 120 million population at Song zenith, and the 50 million recorded prior to Mongol crossing the Huai and Yangtze rivers. What happened was that Pattie, another administrator, claimed that I did not 'edit' as she wanted, and then you jumped in to claim my post was 'insulting' - 'insulting to whom? My post merely pointed out what was behind the revisionist historians, as the linked article said, i.) that communist historian Fan Wenlan had twisted history to serve the political agenda, stating that "any corrupt regime [Southern SOng] could be overthrown by any minority people [Mongols]"; and ii.) that there was a prevalent trend in PRC history arena to twist the true history of Song-Yuan dynasties and doubt the historic accounts of population.

I had cc'ed the owner of this bbs to check out the post you had deleted and make a judgment call.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

I cited a paper from another website that "warhead" complained about it. As requested by "PATTIE", I then transcribed some passages into English, and emphasized only the passages that related to Song population - namely, Cambridge Chinese History's account about 120 million population at Song zenith, and the 50 million recorded prior to Mongol crossing the Huai and Yangtze rivers. What happened was that Pattie, another administrator, claimed that I did not 'edit' as she wanted, and then you jumped in to claim my post was 'insulting' - 'insulting to whom? My post merely pointed out what was behind the revisionist historians, as the linked article said, i.) that communist historian Fan Wenlan had twisted history to serve the political agenda, stating that "any corrupt regime [Southern SOng] could be overthrown by any minority people [Mongols]"; and ii.) that there was a prevalent trend in PRC history arena to twist the true history of Song-Yuan dynasties and doubt the historic accounts of population.

The Cambridge Chinese History is not a professional demographic study of ancient China, while the Zhong Guo Ren Kou Tong Shi series are. Furthermore, the Cambridge Chinese History didn't make any claim that the actual population of the Song declined by that much, nor did it say that all of these missing census figure where due to Mongol slaughter. You are the one that made it up to fill your ethnic bashing agenda.
You attacked these PRC sources as twisted when you haven't even read them, just because they are from the PRC. That qualifies as an agenda driven insult to many here, and insults of any kind, whether it be towards religion, ethnic, or political groups is against the rules.

Furthermore, your have consistently attacked the PRC in most of your posts throughout the years, even when it is completely irrelevant to the topic. You have already broken the rules numerous times by that alone. And its people like you that CHF got censored in China.

Edited by warhead, 23 March 2008 - 03:35 PM.