442 replies to this topic

[Peace]

Well, i feel sorry for my Indonesian Chinese brothers and sisters. I've heard a lot about the 1998 saga in Indonesia. Apparently, it's really inhumane and horrible. Til today, the Indonesian Chinese still live in suspicion and fear that the 1998 saga might resurface.

My Indonesian Chinese friend told me how the Indonesian Chinese adults had to arm themselves to protect their neighbourhood from the native Indonesians and how the Indonesian police watch the attacks without doing anything, some even participated. Til today, they still get threats of another attack on Chinese neighbourhoods yet the Indon government ignores their pleadings and non of those participated in the 1998 attacks were arrested.

Yes, I remember that prior to May 1998, there's already a rumor that there will be attacked against Chinese. I remember before May 1998, my father bought long sword from some trader and hide it in the house in case we have to protect ourselves. But, I think most people didn't believe it would really happen. Not to mention orchestrated by government.

Btw, nice to meet you all. - Chinese Indonesian -

[Peace]

Immigrant groups from different nations usually have had it hard for ages. The greater there numbers usually the greater the difficulties thrown at them. But in the 20 century after WW II the world is supposedly more civilized so violence in a grand scale against any immigrant group should not be tolerated. Which is why I do not understand this Indonesia incident in the 60's.

This post is to give details on the Chinese massacres in the Philippines. To give an idea why they could have happened.

First of all the Spaniards even if they did not like the Chinese or treat them well at times, they did need them since they were essential for the local Filipino economy. No Chinese, not much trade. So it was not to the Spaniards advantage to wipe them out.

Before the 1603 massacre the Chinese pirate Lin Feng who was known also known has Limahong had attacked .
After the failed attempts he managed to establish himself in a part of Luzon. He was going to create his own kingdom.
This is some information on Limahong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limahong

I read that at this time that Imperial China promised the Spaniards trading rights to the Fujian City of Xiamen if they captured Limahong who was also wanted by the Chinese Empire. Even though they were close in catching him the Spaniards never managed to catch him.

Then years later we have Japanese leader

Then this in 1595:



So the Spaniards were very concern with being invaded. You must also remember that there were not many Spaniards in
the Philippines.


Then we get to the 1603 incident.:
A.D. 1603 - Manila, Philippines
24,000 massacred by Spaniards when Ming Mandarins
visited the islands sparking fears of Chinese dominance.

This is called the Sangley (Spanish name for Chinese in the Philippines) Rebellion. It seems a group among the Chinese planned to overthrow the Spaniards since they thought the Spaniards might be deporting them. It then seems some Sangleys had tried to get Filipino natives to join in on overthrowing the Spaniards. These Filipino natives told the Spaniards. The Sangleys found out and moved up there plan to overthrow the Spaniards.
At this time there were around 20000 Chinese (many sources say 20000 not 24000) vs. 700 Spanish vecinos in and around Manila. Found out 1 vecino counts has 4 in a family. So that would be 2800 Spaniards. In the entire Philippines there were 8000 Spaniards (2000 vecinos) up to 1602. If not for the Japanese and Pampango Natives who fought on the Spaniards side, the Spaniards might have lost. There were 300 Japanese and 1500 Pampango. Only 1500 Chinese remained after this incident.

This is a report from a Spanish soldier that was involved:
http://www.filipinia.....e Philippines

More info: http://en.wikipedia....ngley_Rebellion

This is more information on the Rebellion. Scroll down when you get there to were it says "The first insurrection of the Chinese". It should be noted that after the revolt the Philippines economy suffered. The Spaniards also suffered severe shortages of many things and services which had been previously supplied by the Chinese.
http://en.wikipedia....Bravo_de_Acuña


Now we get to this incident:
A.D. 1639-1640 - Manila, Philippines
20,000 die in anti-Chinese violence

This lasted from November until March. It was over tax increases. Seems the King of Spain wanted to stop corruption involved in Chinese and Asian goods going from Manila to Mexico and then to Peru. Seems the ships cargo documents when they arrived in Mexico undervalued the cargo by a large amount. For example, in 1636 two Manila galleons had documents which put the value of all the cargo at 800.000 pesos while in reality it was worth much more, 4 million pesos. So a fine was placed. If it were not paid the goods would not be released. Problem is everyone lost including the Chinese in the Philippines that had bought and sent the items on credit. So many Chinese got out of the business. So in 1637 less ships sailed from Manila to Mexico. Less ships mean less silver arriving from Mexico to Manila.
In 1638 the Chinese left in the business sent there goods on the Manila galleons to Mexico. Again they sold there items on credit. This time two ships were to sail from Manila to Mexico. One was a huge Galleon built in the Philippines and which could carry much cargo. Problem is this huge ship sank before getting to Mexico. Many Chinese businessmen lost a fortune. No insurance back then.

If that was not enough in August 1639 two galleons sailing to Manila and carrying silver were wrecked. They say in 1639 there was hardly any silver floating around in Manila. The Spaniards in the Philippines needed silver to run the government so they did what they do today, they raised taxes. Thats when the trouble started. Many Chinese in the Philippines were already economically bust or close to it. So there was a tax revolt by the Chinese.

Now we get to the 1662 incident:
A.D. 1662 - Manila, Philippines
30,000 put to sea and expelled from the Philippines.
Those caught outside the Parian (Manila's Chinese
ghetto) were beheaded immediately.

This was when Zheng Chenggong also called Koxinga who had conquered Formosa (Taiwan), after a 9 month siege, from Netherlands threatened the Philippines. He supposedly had 80000 men.



The Spaniards thought they were actually going to be invaded by Koxinga so guess who paid the price. The Chinese in Manila paid the price. The Spaniards knew Koxinga was a real threat. Afterall, he had defeated the Netherlands in Formosa which was something the Spaniards could not accomplish.

Now we get to the 1686 incident:
A.D. 1686 - Manila, Philippines
Anti-Chinese violence

It seems the Chinese were not happy with the license fee they had to pay. It was sort of a work type of fee imposed on them. So on May 28 1686 they took out there fustration on Grand Marshal whose name was Nicolás de la Vallena. He was responsible for the licensing of the Chinese. They eliminated him. Thats when the riot started in the chinese section of Manila. After some meetings and discussions a royal decree in November 14 1686 called for Chinese deportations. At first there were no deportations but by 1700 the target number of 6000 was reached. So only 6000 Chinese were left in Manila. The Catholic and none Catholic Chinese had to live in separate sections in the Chinese section of Manila but the Chinese mayor of the Chinese section said that was impossible to accomplish.

Should say that in 1687 there was a complaint filed against the Chinese bakers saying they mixed glass with
flour but that complaint was thrownout by the royal courts because of lack of evidence. It seems some Spaniards wanted the Chinese out but there were others that dragged there feet since they knew the economic problems that would happen if all the Chinese were deported.

This incident :
A.D. 1763 - Manila, Philippines
Anti- Chinese violence

In 1762 the English attacked Manila. They controlled Manila from October 9 to April 1764, 18 months.

It was happened at the peak of Cold War between China (communist) and USA (liberal). Soeharto (2nd president) was said to be CIA agent to prevent communist influence in Indonesia since at that time Soekarno (1st president) have good relationship with China. So, Soeharto ban anything associate with China and kill much people (most of them is China). In Soeharto mind China = communist, so all Chinese have to be killed. The irony is most countries ignore it in the pretext of war.

[Peace]

The bottom line and fact is in this 21th century, Islamic fundamentalism is the root of many problems(caused by the intolenrance of muslims) And no where did I even point out that ALL MUSLIMS are the source of this problem. The only thing I said was that muslims seem to be a part of every conflict and trouble

Anyway do you think Overseas Chinese really need the help of the Chinese government? NO NO and NO. We have been surviving for centuries overseas and we have found economical success in almost every places we choose to go to. The PRC government can't even handle and eradicate some fundamental problems in China such as poverty what makes you think they have the time to handle problems of the Overseas Chinese.

FACT: CHINA NEEDS THE AID OF OVERSEAS CHINESE MORE THAN THE OVERSEAS CHINESE NEED CHINA

Things have been better for Chinese Indonesian nowadays. But, we still need PRC/ROC help, at least to show support for Chinese Indonesian (even though just for superficial thingy). At the very least, it makes Indonesian native and government think twice before pulling another discrimination against Chinese Indonesian.

[Shiang]

I am not Thai btw=)

Muslims are of a diverse race and ethnicity but they are very united. I hope that the PRC/ROC can do more to protect the interest of ethnic chinese. Even if it is not "protecting" they can voice out at atrocities of those governments that persecute ethnic chinese instead of treating ethnic chinese as a milking cow to "be the bridge between native countries and china). We will not be made used of!

again, will you guys stop with the islam hating?

for your information, Arab countries generally don't give a c**p about muslims in other countries.

The Arab sheik Youssef Al Qaradawi even made a trip to China to praise the PRC government's policies in Xinjiang after they cracked down on the Uyghurs.

Saddam Hussein also supplied oil to the Serbs who were massacring Bosnian muslims in the 1990s.

During the Cold War, Arab countries like Syria, Iraq, Algeria all sided with the Communist bloc, many arabs belonged to left wing or communist parties.

Some anti islam advocates love exploiting the Malaysia situation against Chinese- Don't let them- your problem isn't with Islam- its with Malays.

for example, I've heard Malaysia has this law that says Malay culture and langauge are superior and need to be protected, and Malay race blah blah blah, and that if you convert to Islam you are forced to become a Malay, and that the Malay race is exclusively associated with Islam.

you should know that no other muslim country does this- in Arab countries, if you convert to Islam, you aren't forced to become an Arab. In fact, being Arab has nothing to do with being a Muslim according to their laws, since there are arab christians.

I bet Malays would get a nasty suprise if they found out one of the biggest palestinian resistance leaders was George Habash, not only an Arab Christian, but also a communist who said "China is palestine's best friend".

[monterado]

At last I found peoples that have compassionate feeling to the Indonesian chinese, here in this forum.thanks to Almighty God,,may all of our ancestors the victim of racial violence ,,,all the innocent chinese overseas that has died because the inhumane tragedy,bless with the heaven forever...........

As one of the young indonesian chinese that I born and brought up in this very hard situation in indonesia,,,I had a great and deep concern,,about my peoples history and future here.

Yes it's true,my grandmother,,my father ,,my mother,,and much of my relatives here,,,are the silent victim ,when in 1967 ,,the indonesian regime,,with their military general soeharto,,ordered for massacre in west borneo,,they killed the OC everywhere without any true reason ,,,because the regime need someone to blame for the clash between PKI (indonesian communist party) and the military regime (soeharto),,,which the regime been back up by the islamic force . Since the communist was the only one power that could rival the islamic to be the dominant power in the nation. So,,they (military +islam) will done everything to crush the PKI,,(coz in reality they do afraid of the communist).
And if today we find in the history book,which,told later by the winner (military),,,that the PKI was who must responsible for the situation at that time.........THE FACT is all of the story they told is all big lie...lie,,,its a very false history that create by the military themself.
The only true fact,,is come from the innocent that been the victim that time,,,,most of them died and the rest is live in very sad condition.and OC is the part of the victim.
The real fact,,that was the military and islamic whose want to revolt and create their new regime,,by blaming the innocent as communist..and they did it....as today we can see what kind of goverment that in indonesia now,,,,,,1969-1998 (military regime under soeharto) and the islamic is the only power that rules till now 2011.

Back to 1967 ,,to west borneo,,there was my ancestor homeland in indonesia,,my great grandfather till my parents.
As the old, told me their miserable story,,
We chinese overseas,,lived in most of west borneo,,since a long time ago,,and the God ,,blessed us with a land of prosperity...most of them were farmer,,
We lived peacefully,,,we had a large farm/paddy field,,,lot of cattles,,our ancestor was very good in farming,,,so there was plentyfull of rice,fruits,,milk,,egg,,etc
part of them also miners,,,and the rest were traditional business man.
most of them dont know anything about PKI/communist....they didn't do politics at all,,,,they just know how to manage the land to be heaven for the next generation.We even didn't need the outside world to be survived at the time.
Then came,,the military under the command of soeharto,,without any reason,,,they came and kill,,just like a troop of zombie.(islamic zombie)
About 70000 OC were killed,,,and also ten of thousand other forced to leave they land ,they home,without bring anything at all.
The innocent were killed without any explanation,,,the old left behind and died lonely without funeral,,the young been killed,,part of them run for their live.
I remember my mother told me,,that even the forest and the land,,became very sad for us,,,days before the military came,,,,the sky looked strange,,,in the afternoon we could saw the sky very dark and became red.....even the river (the source of the life) became drought just in one night....the bird was no singing,,the ants were moved their den ,,the land look so sad at that time..the forest very silent............may be the God was crying for us...........
As the fact today,,,,40 years after,,,our land today has vanished and become a jungle,,veri big jungle as they were in the past....the God take it,,and keep it again,,,God will not give them to the indonesian,,,not even a little bit of land.It's better to be a jungle,,than be takeover by the indonesian.

This story is just a bit part of the whole history from the OC here in indonesia...as we know many more has and to come,,,such as the 1998 tragedy,,,I was 17 that year,,and once again I saw the humanity crime did by the indonesian.........Only God could help us to take the revenge

[monterado]

The idea to relocate the OC from indonesia just can be real if the PRC open their hand to help us to provide all the way....or minimally if the PRC doesn't want to be involved tu vulgar..there must be the World Chinese Overseas Organisation do it ..........

The dream is,,all chinese overseas,,where ever they come from,,,US/Europe/Asia/Australia,,,must stand together in an organisation,,such as UN or something like that,,,so when ever and where ever,,there is the OC in very dificult condition in their country.....the organisation could legally help them find the way out...in the name of the world organisation. with or without PRC.

so the main idea,,,,we,,,the chinese overseas all over the world must united in the mission to help the OC in the other part of world.
We can open the headquarter office in the "freedom" OC country such as singapore...and ..taiwan.
From there we can put the foundation to help each other...............I think its necessary urgent this time,,,,before the OC get another inhumane rascial tragedy.

"If we can not change the enemy,,,than we should change our self".......the option of change here are:
1... we surrendered to the condition ,,,we convert to be islam,,,do not try to remember our ancestor,,our root,,our blood....just life as their zombie,,,,now and our next generation will not be the chinese anymore.,,,since we loose our self and soul.
2... we change our pattern ,,where now we just fight alone,,and die alone,,,,to be,,,,,,,fight together and die together,,still as the chinese...still with our pride as human.
If we lose we will die in honor as our ancestor,,died in the arm of the GOD.....if we success,,than we paid with the "freedom".....then our next generation will still life in their way as the chinese....the freedom is valuable than anything........I exactly now it, coz I am too,, born and live without my freedom now.

SO,there is 2 option above,,,,,please ,,it seems very absurd,,,,but its the fact for us who lived in indonesia.
so unite overseas chinese together.....in one big hand we can stand stronger and find the wayout.
Any one,,overseas chinese,,,where ever you are........if you have the same mind with me,,,,,,,,wake up and start to create the foundation of our organisation.
Especially for you OC,,who bless with power,money and,rich,,,,,,,,,please....unite us,,..we will follow you.

[Loong]

Interesting to see the events are all in Malaysia and Indonesia for the last 50 years. Being a Malaysian and working in Indonesia for the last 6 years, I speak, write both language (which is very very different).

The main thing is the Malay culture (in Indonesia) and Chinese culture is not compatible.

1. Generally, the Malay culture (in both countries) and fairly relaxed. They would work and be contented. From a village background, the family unit in Malay culture would target for self sufficiency (i.e. enough to eat, and a decent shelter). However, Chinese would try to work hard and even try to keep for the next generation, allowing them to amass huge amount of wealth in 10 -20 years.

2. Malay culture are very Islamic, and would strictly keep that way. Some of these would actually hamper development. Recently, you will see that banks have set up islamic banking services (as conventional banking actually breaks some islamic rule on interest rate and loans). Even Insurance was thought to be un-islamic until major players offered Islamic insurance. For the chinese, anything goes. This ultimately gave the chinese some edge in the competition, where the malays felt that they were shortchanged in the country's development.

3. The colonial British and Dutch used divide and conquer techniques, in Malaysia, the country's job and education is segragated by race, whereby all government officials were Malays, thereby creating a political culture dominated by Malays. The chinese were encouraged to go into commerce. This trend continued, thereby causing a big imbalance in country's racial harmony and growth. A good book is http://www.coronetbo.../1/5men8873.htm This book will explain how things turn out this way, and how difficult it is to change the mindset. (PS this is not a pro government book, but documented history on how goverment got it right and wrong, causing the problems today.)

[DWin 文大偉]

The OP left out two massacres

1. Idaho, near Boise, 1800s: between 35-40 Chinese killed (by miners?). There is an area near Boise called "Chinese Gardens" because the Chinese there grew most of the vegetables eaten by miners.

2. Chihuaha, about 1910. Pancho Villa, who for some reason hated Chinese, killed over a hundred Chinese (perhaps many more), forcing the others to flee the area. Many Chinese came to Mexico instead of the U.S. at the turn of the 19th-20th centuries, due to anti-Asian exclusion laws passed in the U.S. in the late 19th century.