442 replies to this topic

[Enkidu]

Da jia ni men hao

I'm sure we will witnessing this in the near future.

Cheers.

Well, a strong China does not immediately translate to a peaceful and progressive life for us overseas Chinese. A strong and aggressive China may mean worse treatment of ethnic Chinese by the natives. So, it is in the interest of every overseas Chinese that the government in China does not act in a prejudicial manner to its home country, otherwise there could be repercussions. The war between China and Vietnam in 1979 led to worse treatment of the Vietnamese Chinese. You cannot count on China to protect the overseas Chinese also. Many Chinese in Cambodia suffered under the Khmer Rouge regime, China's then ally in Indochina.

I visited Jakarta during the Chinese new year period last month. As usual, my friends and I went to this place near Plaza Senayan. There was a lion-dance. My feeling was that the native Indonesians are accepting the Chinese on the surface, but it may take many more years before the Government abolishes all discriminations against the Indonesian Chinese. Despite all the talks about Malaysia being truly Asia, discrimination by and large still exist against Chinese Malaysian whether in terms of education, armed forces, the civil service, government projects, government loans...etc.

The solution to getting better treatment for overseas Chinese varies from each Country. I always think overseas Chinese need to get more involved in the civic lives of the country they live in, rather than just concentrating in making money. But hoping for a strong China is definitely not a good solution. Hate to burst your dream for a return to the Tang dynasty.

[Liang Jieming]

Well, a strong China does not immediately translate to a peaceful and progressive life for us overseas Chinese. A strong and aggressive China may mean worse treatment of ethnic Chinese by the natives. So, it is in the interest of every overseas Chinese that the government in China does not act in a prejudicial manner to its home country, otherwise there could be repercussions. The war between China and Vietnam in 1979 led to worse treatment of the Vietnamese Chinese. You cannot count on China to protect the overseas Chinese also. Many Chinese in Cambodia suffered under the Khmer Rouge regime, China's then ally in Indochina.

I visited Jakarta during the Chinese new year period last month. As usual, my friends and I went to this place near Plaza Senayan. There was a lion-dance. My feeling was that the native Indonesians are accepting the Chinese on the surface, but it may take many more years before the Government abolishes all discriminations against the Indonesian Chinese. Despite all the talks about Malaysia being truly Asia, discrimination by and large still exist against Chinese Malaysian whether in terms of education, armed forces, the civil service, government projects, government loans...etc.

The solution to getting better treatment for overseas Chinese varies from each Country. I always think overseas Chinese need to get more involved in the civic lives of the country they live in, rather than just concentrating in making money. But hoping for a strong China is definitely not a good solution. Hate to burst your dream for a return to the Tang dynasty. 

I tend to agree with this. A strong china might help but then again, it could also make things worse.

Discrimation against Chinese exists even in Malaysia as so rightly pointed out, especially in civil service.

[Suhana LIM]

I tend to agree with this.  A strong china might help but then again, it could also make things worse.

Discrimation against Chinese exists even in Malaysia as so rightly pointed out, especially in civil service.

Da jia ni men hao

The strong mainland China of course will not automatically will "help" hoakiau. But at least it will lifted our pride as the Chinese. Regarding the sentiment from the native, let's face it. It's part of the deal as the hoakiau. But IMHO, it's better to have a strong (politically and financially) than poor and weak mainland China.

Cheers.

[Suhana LIM]

I visited Jakarta during the Chinese new year period last month. As usual, my friends and I went to this place near Plaza Senayan. There was a lion-dance. My feeling was that the native Indonesians are accepting the Chinese on the surface, but it may take many more years before the Government abolishes all discriminations against the Indonesian Chinese.

I always think overseas Chinese need to get more involved in the civic lives of the country they live in, rather than just concentrating in making money.

Enkidu ni hao

Yes, in recent years, there were some changes in the treatment towards the hoakiau in Indonesia. We are allowed to learn and use our language, openly celebrate lunar new year, etc. But all are only in the surface, still not touching the core issues. There are still plenty must be done on both sides, the government and the hoa kiau. The discriminative laws and regulations from the past era still in place, not abolished yet.

The thinking for hoa kiau involve in all sectors of community, IMHO, is the fault of the government itself. If you find it almost impossible doing anything except business, of course at the end you will become good at this sector. But then, you are still blamed do not want to participate in different sectors.

This kind of "mind and physcology game" is one of Suharto's tactic in his treatment towards the hoa kiau. He only let us do business and closed the other sectors. After we become good and he used this as an excuse to scape goating when something wrong happened. We, the hoakiau in Indonesia, know all this "Chinese must involves more in society" thing to well

Cheers.

[Enkidu]

Da jia ni men hao

The strong mainland China of course will not automatically will "help" hoakiau. But at least it will lifted our pride as the Chinese.  Regarding the sentiment from the native, let's face it. It's part of the deal as the hoakiau. But IMHO, it's better to have a strong (politically and financially) than poor and weak  mainland China.

Cheers.

We overseas Chinese need to be cautious not to let our pride be construed by the native people as arrogance or feeling of racial or cultural supremacy.

[Suhana LIM]

We overseas Chinese need to be cautious not to let our pride be construed by the native people as arrogance or feeling of racial or cultural supremacy. 

Enkidu ni hao

Yes, I agree that we need not become arrogance. There is a different between pride and arrogance. Strong mainland China is needed. It's like have a strong "father." Of course much much better than "weak and sick father."

Cheers.

[Fobulous]

Remember all this well. We do not need to exact the payment by blood, but we must understand that such took place because no one had any respects for China. Such can only be stopped when China rises as a powerful nation and exert her influence in the righteous way.

I dont' think it's because China is not strong enough but because it's the general sentiments of the locals to resist outsiders. I'm sure there are countless of ethnic clensings in China as well..

[lobster]

I'm sure there are countless of ethnic clensings in China as well..

Hmm examples?

I know warlord Ran Min did a massacre of non-Hans in the Age of Fragmentation, but that was in 4th or 5th century. The Mongolians and Manchurians both did quite some killings of Hans, but those were more like the Nanjing Massacre instead of trying to kill the entire Han race.

And?

[Suhana LIM]

reading all this made me sick. in the future i think we should help those poor chinese out of indonesia then nuke their island afterward as a payback for centuries of discrimination. 

Newbie ni hao

Nice to know you. I can understand why you gave the idea But I don't think we have to take that extreme measure.

Maybe the formation of organisation established by the Jewish, Simon Weisenthal Center, is needed ?

Cheers.

[snowybeagle]

Maybe the formation of organisation established by the Jewish, Simon Weisenthal Center, is needed ?

The position of the ethnic-Chinese in Indonesia is still too precarious for that.

Unlike in Germany/Austria where majority of the populace acknowledged the injustice done to the Jews, many Indonesians remained poorly educated, prejudiced and suffer from poverty. You would not find many non-Chinese who would feel genuine remorse nor realise it was a terrible thing done to the Chinese.

It is not in the interest of those with political power to seek redress.

This situation is comparable to that in China where today, victims of Cultural Revolution and of the TianAnMen crackdown still could not gain official recognition for the injustice they had suffered.

In contrast, in Taiwan, at least victims and families of victims of KMT suppression could at least publicise their cases.

But at the same time, the Asian traditional mentality prevails.
None of the national governments of former comfort women (China, Korea, Taiwan) actually established official organisation to provide assistance and support for the victims, leaving them to carry on the fight in the capacity of private individuals against the Japanese government.

If this is how Asian governments act when their own citizens were hurt by outsiders,
I am not optimistic about how they would act when a minority of their citizens were persecuted by a majority of the citizens.

[Liang Jieming]

Which is one of the main problems I find with Asians. Not enough collective action outside one's own family.

[Liang Jieming]

I really don't know. China today is growing rapidly economically, militarily and in so many other areas but it would seem it's been degrading socially. The Chinese were not always like this. A reading of our history, philisophies, stories, legends will tell you that. But today, everyone for himself seems to be the rule.

I can only hope with growing affluence, influence and political clout in the international arena, China and the Chinese people would also mature responsibly.

In a sense, you can understand why things are happening they way they are. This is a time of opportunity where the fastest, the quickest, the bravest wins. This leads to inspiration for some, irritation and desperation in others. It's like the wild wild west ala Chinese style. Anything goes. It will take a mellowing of people's ambitions, the maturing of pursuits to see a slow down in the mad rush for money. Only then will we see the better side of nature emerge. Like they say, contented people don't make war. When China finally emerges from this stage of rapid free-for-all development, it should blossom into a next stage of cultural and moral maturity. This is what we see from developed countries today. People in developed countries no longer have to worry about making money or etching a living. Their minds are free to explore the more "noble" pursuits of man like right and wrong, ethics, culture, arts etc. But to get to his level of development, the developed countries too went through their periods of selfish, mad scrambles for wealth, land and position.

So too will China. It's all a cycle. China has had such periods of maturity too. The peak of the Han dynasty, the Tang, the northern Song, were relative periods of brilliance where people were mature and responsible. Just too bad today we are currently in a lower level of this great cycle of social evolution. It's not a one way street. Civilisations rise and ebb. Some ebb to extinction, others like China, ebb only to rise again. Islamic culture too is in a similar cycle. It blossomed in the European dark ages. Ditto for European civilisation. They just happen to be at the top of their cycle at the moment.

So, yes I lament what I see today in what seems to be a critical lack of culture and upbringing in today's China, but like a teenager, they too will outgrow their tantrums and growup.

[Suhana LIM]

The position of the ethnic-Chinese in Indonesia is still too precarious for that.

Unlike in Germany/Austria where majority of the populace acknowledged the injustice done to the Jews, many Indonesians remained poorly educated, prejudiced and suffer from poverty. You would not find many non-Chinese who would feel genuine remorse nor realise it was a terrible thing done to the Chinese.

It is not in the interest of those with political power to seek redress.

This situation is comparable to that in China where today, victims of Cultural Revolution and of the TianAnMen crackdown still could not gain official recognition for the injustice they had suffered.

In contrast, in Taiwan, at least victims and families of victims of KMT suppression could at least publicise their cases.

But at the same time, the Asian traditional mentality prevails.
None of the national governments of former comfort women (China, Korea, Taiwan) actually established official organisation to provide assistance and support for the victims, leaving them to carry on the fight in the capacity of private individuals against the Japanese government.

If this is how Asian governments act when their own citizens were hurt by outsiders,
I am not optimistic about how they would act when a minority of their citizens were persecuted by a majority of the citizens.

Da jia ni men hao

To date, the idea seems unthinkable, but I am sure in the future, when younger generations become more concious, this type of institution will emerge.

Cheers.