18 replies to this topic

[Wei Feng]

found a site with lots of Qing dynasty portrets, it worth a look.

Portrets of the emperors
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24013
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24016
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=28388

Portrests of empress and concubine
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24003
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24029
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24053
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24076
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45574
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45581
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45583


Portrets of prince and princess
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24000
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24014
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24017
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24032
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24037
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24038
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24040
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24041
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24042
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24044
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24049
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24056
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45572
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45575
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45577
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45582
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45589
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45590
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45600

Portrests of courtiers and officials
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24034
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24036
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24080
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24084
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24083
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=25020
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45585
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45591
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45592
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45593
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45594
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45595
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45596
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45599
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45600
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45601
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45604
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45605
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45609

Portrests of importend people
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24028
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24035
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24047
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24058
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24075
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45570
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45569
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45571
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45573
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45584
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45586
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45587
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45597
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45598

Portrests of commen people
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24077
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24090
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24091
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=24094
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45565
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45566
http://www.asia.si.e...?ObjectId=45603

[Suren911]

This is my grandma. Oh the irony in this pic lol.

[Tungus]

This is my grandma. Oh the irony in this pic lol.

I believe your grandma was wearing a Mongol costumes , not Manchu.

[Zorigo]

I believe your grandma was wearing a Mongol costumes , not Manchu.

she looks like more eastern Mongolian, costume is definitely Mongolian, maybe buriat or daur Mongol costume

Edited by Zorigo, 25 September 2006 - 05:42 PM.

[Non-Han Nan Ban]

Wei Feng,

Thank you. Those are awesome! I think that's the most Chinese portraits I've seen in one place. Once again, another reason to enjoy CHF and the community at large.

Eric

[Rong Qin Wang]

This is my grandma. Oh the irony in this pic lol.

Zunjing de China History Forum members,

First of all, I would like to thank Wei Feng for sharing with us some wonderful pictures regarding the Qing Dynasty!

Zunjing de Suren911,

Hmm, I think that your grandma's gown looks something similar to what a Qing Dynasty Empress would wear; however, the head garment is definitely Mongolian. So, I have no idea whether it is Manchurian or Mongolian. Is it even possible to be a combination of both?

[Suren911]

Yeah, a lot of Manchurian garments are Mongolian influenced. Every emperor wore something differently depending on their clans. If an emperor or empress have Mongolian blood, then their garments would have more Mongolian influence.

I said irony because this garment that she is wearing is in fact from Qing dynasty but with obvious origins in Mongl styles especially the hat. My grandma is pretty much full Mongolian yet wearing a Qing garment but is also Mongolian looking. That's what I meant by the irony lol. But yeah my grandmother is eastern Mongolian. Very observant, everybody!

[Wei Feng]

Yeah, a lot of Manchurian garments are Mongolian influenced. Every emperor wore something differently depending on their clans. If an emperor or empress have Mongolian blood, then their garments would have more Mongolian influence.

I said irony because this garment that she is wearing is in fact from Qing dynasty but with obvious origins in Mongl styles especially the hat. My grandma is pretty much full Mongolian yet wearing a Qing garment but is also Mongolian looking. That's what I meant by the irony lol. But yeah my grandmother is eastern Mongolian. Very observant, everybody!

I tought the manchu cloths where u unique. But the hooved sleevs shown on the pic below, long sleevs and collars are a machu idear divert from there own culture right?

[Rong Qin Wang]

Yeah, a lot of Manchurian garments are Mongolian influenced. Every emperor wore something differently depending on their clans. If an emperor or empress have Mongolian blood, then their garments would have more Mongolian influence.

I said irony because this garment that she is wearing is in fact from Qing dynasty but with obvious origins in Mongl styles especially the hat. My grandma is pretty much full Mongolian yet wearing a Qing garment but is also Mongolian looking. That's what I meant by the irony lol. But yeah my grandmother is eastern Mongolian. Very observant, everybody!

Zunjing de Suren911,

Hmm, I guess since they were both barbaric tribes, it would be easy for the Mongolian to exert some influences on the Manchurian. I was not aware that every Emperor had different attires depending on his clan. Is not the title of Emperor hereditary? Would not that mean they would have to come from the same clan anyway? As for Empresses, of course, they came from different clans. Otherwise, they would run into the problem of incest pretty soon. I recall during the reigns of Emperor Huang Taiji and Emperor Shun Zhi, the Emperors were forced to take in Mongolian Princesses as their Empress or major concubines. So, I guess that was why Mongolian and Manchurian attires look quite similar.

Xie Xie,

[Suren911]

^Well, not different clan per se, but it kind of depends on the mother of the emperor. A lot of Manchurian emperors had Mongolian mothers or concubines. These women determined the status of their kids in a court. The attire for every emperor, in fact, varied in a lot of minute details most wouldn't be able to tell nowadays but was a big deal back then. e.g. the color of the jewel on the hat, shape of thw hat, the lining of the jackets, shades of gold and purple on it, etc etc. But yes, overall, Mongolian and Manchurian attires share a lot of common elements.

[Suren911]

Oh yeah just so everybody knows, what my grandmother is wearing is in fact a Manchurian gown, her hat would signify she was a Mongolian princess married to the Manchurian royal family. She would be expected to be a Manchurian queen, but her clothing would be modified so that her Mongolian heritage is retained to some respect.

[Rong Qin Wang]

Zunjing de Suren911,

Thank you so much for reminding me that the Emperors’ attires were partly based on his mother’s clan! I have completely forgotten about that. Since Manchu were a minority, they were quite picky about the origins of the Empress or concubines of each Emperor. It would not be surprising that a son of a Manchu concubine would have more favors than a son of a Han concubine. You are right; there were small differences that we could not even tell nowadays, but were pretty significant back then.

Oh yeah just so everybody knows, what my grandmother is wearing is in fact a Manchurian gown, her hat would signify she was a Mongolian princess married to the Manchurian royal family. She would be expected to be a Manchurian queen, but her clothing would be modified so that her Mongolian heritage is retained to some respect.

Hmm, so my observation was correct! Your grandmother was wearing a Qing Dynasty gown with a Mongolian Princess head garment. It was nice of the Manchurian to permit Mongolian Princesses, who married into the royal family to retain some of their heritage.

By the way, are you a descendant of Genghis Khan by any chance?

Xie Xie,

[Suren911]

^Haha I wouldn't dare to make such claims. But I do know a girl who is a descendent of him. People with the lastname "Borjigin" are descendents of him. It's quite an honorable name. Inner Mongolians who had to adopt Chinese names with that name had the name "Bo" but with a very odd character to signify that it's a foreign name. My paternal grandmother is also Mongolian and her lastname is "Yun" but you can only find that character in an ancient Chinese dictionary made prior to the 1900s, similarly with some Manchus who adopted Chinese lastnames.

[Rong Qin Wang]

^Haha I wouldn't dare to make such claims. But I do know a girl who is a descendent of him. People with the lastname "Borjigin" are descendents of him. It's quite an honorable name. Inner Mongolians who had to adopt Chinese names with that name had the name "Bo" but with a very odd character to signify that it's a foreign name. My paternal grandmother is also Mongolian and her lastname is "Yun" but you can only find that character in an ancient Chinese dictionary made prior to the 1900s, similarly with some Manchus who adopted Chinese lastnames.

Zunjing de Suren911,

Well, since your grandmother was a Mongolian Princess, who married into the Manchurian royal family, it is not wrong to assume that you are a descendant of Genghis Khan. I think you are already too proud of your heritage that you don’t even need to claim you are a descendant of Genghis Khan. Hehehe!

Hmm, when you are talking about "Borjigin" being quite an honorable surname, was that the clan name of two Empresses, and one major concubine of Emperor Huang Taiji (r. 1626-1643)? They were Empress Xiao Duan, Empress Xiao Zhuang, and Princess Hai Lan Zu?

Xie Xie,

[Suren911]

^Oh dear lol. My grandma and my dad travelled around in Beijing and there are tour spots in Zijing palace where you can dress up and have your pictures taken as an emperor/empress/princess but no she is not. If she really was, this picture would at least not be colored and high in resolution lol. I assumed people knew it was a dress up since it's so common in China but I guess I should've clarified.

But since she does have Mongolian features, the person who was in charge of the clothing said "OMG you're like the real deal cause you look like you came straight out of a Qing painting!!!!!11" and she just laughed.

As for Manchurian, I do have some Manchurian blood flowing in the family. I myself am not directly Manchurian royalty, but I have some Manchurian inlaws who are of royal birth. Commoners like us would be considered "married into" their family so we're still going to be associated with them despite we aren't related by blood. (there's a lot of government benefits associated lol). They are from the Zhenglan banner which was supposedly governed by Suerhaci, Emperor Nuerhaci's younger brother which was also shared with Nuerhaci's younger son. The older folks are all of full Manchurian blood and have that distinct look. My aunt's dad looks so much like Nuerhaci's painting it's uncanny.

I'm more familiar with Mongolian history than Manchurian history, so I can't tell you too much about tha clans and titles in Manchurian times. But it's all a blur now. People changed their names and Mongols in China have modified their names into Chinese names now so it's hard to tell who's from which clan and what not. My grandmother in the picture is my dad's mom and is full Mongolian and she has a modified Chinese lastname "Yun4" but you can't find that character in dictionaries made after approximately the 1920s. It's an archaic and strange character that was almost never used in China history. Some of those characters' creation was solely used for foreigners who changed their names into Chinese names. So names like that signify that it's of non-Chinese origin.

Edited by Suren911, 30 September 2006 - 02:19 PM.