48 replies to this topic

[galvatron prime]

i have a burning question on gundai fei ,why are she killed by his own son prince mangutai ,are she do anything serious wrong that results hurachi order prince mangutai killed her ,does anyone know the real reason ,thank you

Edited by galvatron, 07 November 2006 - 10:06 AM.

[arjen robben]

According to the book title coxinga,Lady gundai get killed by his own son Mangultai because she was believe having affair with one of the Nurhachi son and she was from fuca clan of mongoland result of this it also let Mangultai to be relegated .

Edited by arjen robben, 20 February 2007 - 12:43 AM.

[lifezard]

According to the book title Kongxica ,Lady gundai get killed by his own son Mangultai because she was believe having affair with one of the Nurhachi son and she was from fuca clan of mongoland result of this it also let Mangultai to be relegated .

yes, the materials i have also indicates that. manggūltai killed lady gundai out of shame of his mother being suspected of having committed adultery (i need to check with who). lady gundai had already being stripped of her principle wife status by nurhaci breofre that. in any case, the incident effectively any of manggūltai's succession chances.

[Rong Qin Wang]

According to the book title Kongxica ,Lady gundai get killed by his own son Mangultai because she was believe having affair with one of the Nurhachi son and she was from fuca clan of mongoland result of this it also let Mangultai to be relegated .

Zunjing de Arjen Robben,

Hmm, may I ask if the book “Kongxica” is in English or not since I would really like to read it? Indeed, Gundai Fei did a terrible thing by committing adultery with one of Nurhachi’s sons; however, would not it still be wrong for Mangultai to kill his mother? This would no doubt relegate Mangultai from his position. Was Mangultai’s sole reason for killing his mother because she had committed adultery? This is one of the few times I have heard regarding a prince actually killing his mother.

Xie Xie,

[Rong Qin Wang]

yes, the materials i have also indicates that. manggūltai killed lady gundai out of shame of his mother being suspected of having committed adultery (i need to check with who). lady gundai had already being stripped of her principle wife status by nurhaci breofre that. in any case, the incident effectively any of manggūltai's succession chances.

Zunjing de Lifezard,

Hmm, based on the information you have, did Mangultai kill his mother just because he was ashamed of her for committing adultery? Or were there some other hidden reasons?

Mangultai had his eyes on the throne. Of course, being a son of the disgraced concubine would definitely lesser his chances of becoming the new heir. With this in mind, did Mangultai think if he had killed his mother on his own to show he was being very just, this would increase his possibilities for the throne? If this was what he had in mind, then he was totally wrong! Nurhachi was said to have been a person who really cared about blood related people. To Nurhachi, nothing was probably worst than a son actually killing his mother, just so he could have a better chance to succeed to the throne. This would also give Nurhaci the signal that this son could kill him as well in order to take over the throne.

By the way, who were Nurhachi’s principal wives? Of course, when Huang Taiji ascended to the throne in 1636, he only conferred his birth mother with the title Empress Xiao Ci Gao. This would give people the impression that Empress Xiao Ci Gao was the only principal wife of Nurhachi. However, this certainly would not be true at all. At first, I thought only the birth mother of Princes Cuyen and Dai Shan was the first principal wife of Nurhachi. However, you have stated Gundai fei was also a principal wife of Nurhachi. So, how many principal wives did Nurhachi actually have? Had Empress Xiao Ci Gao ever been a principal wife of Nurhachi? Or was she just elevated to the position of Empress because her only son became the Qing Emperor in 1636? Also, during Nurhachi’s final years, I am pretty sure his principal wife was Lady Abahai, the birth mother of Princes Ajige, Dorgon, Dodo. Also, I did notice a few ladies with the title of “Da Fei.” Hence, would it be wrong to assume that “Da Fei” was the term for principal wife while Nurhachi was still the Grand Khan? When Huang Taiji ascended to the throne in 1636, Nurhachi was posthumously raised to the rank of Huang Di, while Lady Yehenara was also posthumously raised to the rank of Huang Hou. Huang Taiji effectively left the position of principal wife to solely his birth mother. Actually, Lady Abahai was conferred with the title Empress Xiao Lie Wu by her son, Prince Dorgon, when he was at the peak of his power. Of course, after Prince Dorgon’s death, Lady Abahai was also stripped of her title as Empress.

Anyway, I am really interested in the wives of Nurhachi, and also the complete structure of the Rear Palace during the Hou Jin era (before Huang Taiji proclaimed the Qing Dynasty). If you can answer my questions or direct me to any relevant sources, then I would greatly appreciate it!

Xie Xie,

[arjen robben]

I have find link in spcnet.tv that have a a mainland tv serias that have feature Nurhachi and his wife ,Gundai could be Mong ke in this tv show,perhaps someone have see it can expain

http://spcnet.tv/rev...ew.php?rID=1134

Edited by arjen robben, 13 February 2007 - 06:50 AM.

[lifezard]

I have find link in spcnet.tv that have a a mainland tv serias that have feature Nurhachi and his wife ,Gundai could be Mong ke in this tv show,perhaps someone have see it can expain

http://spcnet.tv/rev...ew.php?rID=1134

Mongke (Hong Taiji s birth mother) is of the Yehe clan while Gundai is of the Fuca clan. I dun think they are the same person

Zunjing de Lifezard,

Hmm, based on the information you have, did Mangultai kill his mother just because he was ashamed of her for committing adultery? Or were there some other hidden reasons?

Mangultai had his eyes on the throne. Of course, being a son of the disgraced concubine would definitely lesser his chances of becoming the new heir. With this in mind, did Mangultai think if he had killed his mother on his own to show he was being very just, this would increase his possibilities for the throne? If this was what he had in mind, then he was totally wrong! Nurhachi was said to have been a person who really cared about blood related people. To Nurhachi, nothing was probably worst than a son actually killing his mother, just so he could have a better chance to succeed to the throne. This would also give Nurhaci the signal that this son could kill him as well in order to take over the throne.

By the way, who were Nurhachi’s principal wives? Of course, when Huang Taiji ascended to the throne in 1636, he only conferred his birth mother with the title Empress Xiao Ci Gao. This would give people the impression that Empress Xiao Ci Gao was the only principal wife of Nurhachi. However, this certainly would not be true at all. At first, I thought only the birth mother of Princes Cuyen and Dai Shan was the first principal wife of Nurhachi. However, you have stated Gundai fei was also a principal wife of Nurhachi. So, how many principal wives did Nurhachi actually have? Had Empress Xiao Ci Gao ever been a principal wife of Nurhachi? Or was she just elevated to the position of Empress because her only son became the Qing Emperor in 1636? Also, during Nurhachi’s final years, I am pretty sure his principal wife was Lady Abahai, the birth mother of Princes Ajige, Dorgon, Dodo. Also, I did notice a few ladies with the title of “Da Fei.” Hence, would it be wrong to assume that “Da Fei” was the term for principal wife while Nurhachi was still the Grand Khan? When Huang Taiji ascended to the throne in 1636, Nurhachi was posthumously raised to the rank of Huang Di, while Lady Yehenara was also posthumously raised to the rank of Huang Hou. Huang Taiji effectively left the position of principal wife to solely his birth mother. Actually, Lady Abahai was conferred with the title Empress Xiao Lie Wu by her son, Prince Dorgon, when he was at the peak of his power. Of course, after Prince Dorgon’s death, Lady Abahai was also stripped of her title as Empress.

Anyway, I am really interested in the wives of Nurhachi, and also the complete structure of the Rear Palace during the Hou Jin era (before Huang Taiji proclaimed the Qing Dynasty). If you can answer my questions or direct me to any relevant sources, then I would greatly appreciate it!

Xie Xie,

you have quite a few questions .. not sure i can answer them all and wel enuff .. i will try

[Rong Qin Wang]

I have find link in spcnet.tv that have a a mainland tv serias that have feature Nurhachi and his wife ,Gundai could be Mong ke in this tv show,perhaps someone have see it can expain

http://spcnet.tv/rev...ew.php?rID=1134

Zunjing de Arjen Robben,

The TV Series you are referring to is “Tai Zu Mi Shi - Nurhachi.” I have seen this series last year and must admit this is one of the best dramas I have ever seen! The storyline was so complex and touching that you cannot stop watching. The contrasting personalities of various characters are very attractive as well. Anyway, I will stop blabbering about the content of this series since you already have a well written review in front of you.

Despite how much I love this drama, I am not stupid enough to believe that most of the things happened in there were according to official records. In fact, I would say this series is 70% fiction and 30% history. Hence, this certainly would not be a reliable source to discuss regarding the wives of Nurhachi or anything related to this matter. When I was watching this series, it is purely out of entertainment rather than for the purpose of learning something new concerning the founding of the Later Jin Dynasty.

Even though this series had almost nothing in terms of history, it is still a highly valued series when viewed on its own. Hence, I would be more than happy to discuss this series with you and answer your question.

This series depicted Nurhachi’s rise to power and centered around his relationships with five beautiful women. He cared for these five women in different ways; however, ended up hurting them all unintentionally. In the end, he realized his ambition to unite all the Manchu tribes had cost him the happiness of everyone around him. He was portrayed as a tragic hero since he still felt comfort by the fact that he had accomplished something no other Manchurians had done before. This is a very sentimental drama; hence, if you are just looking for political agendas and military strategies, then you would be rather disappointed!

The first woman in Nurhachi’s life would be his first wife, Qing Ya. I believe in real history she was the birth mother of Princes Cuyen and Dai Shan since she did give birth to the two princes in the series as well and was described as a perfect wife. It is too bad she had to die pretty early in the series.

The second woman in Nurhachi’s life would be the love of his life, Dong Ge. When Nurhachi’s power was not at his peak, the Yehenala clan was the most powerful among the Manchurian tribes. The Yehenala leader had one younger brother and two younger sisters. The elder sister was Dong Ge, who was described as the perfect woman as she was not only the most beautiful girl, but also was very skilled in political and military affairs! Because of her awesome qualities, she captured Nurhachi’s heart almost immediately after they have met. However, she never married Nurhachi; hence, she may have been just a fictional character created by the script writers in order to have a more interesting storyline.

The third woman in Nurhachi’s life would be the youngest sister of the Yehenala Bei Le. Her given name was Mong Ge and she was the birth mother of Huang Taiji. She initially married Nurhachi to save her sister’s life; hence, nobody expected them to actually love each other like a normal pair of husband and wife. However, Mong Ge gradually grew to love Nurhachi since he was a true man, while Nurhachi was also developing some feelings for Mong Ge due to her kind nature. After the death of Nurhachi’s first wife, Mong Ge became his official wife.

The fourth woman in Nurhachi’s life would be Shuerhagi’s first wife, Na Qi Ya. In this series, she was the birth mother of Prince Admin, I am not sure if historical records will agree to that. Na Qi Ya was originally the daugher of the arch-enemy of Nurhachi. However, through a twist of fate, she also fell in love with Nurhachi. Nurhachi also had feelings for her; however, he did not want to marry her since he already had a first wife, and could not give her the position she truly deserved. Hence, it was most ideal for Nurhachi to push Shuerhagi into marrying Na Qi Ya instead, since she would then be the first wife. She was very smart in dealing with her relationships with the two brothers. She also had the desire to make everyone happy even at the expense of her own happiness.

The fifth and final woman in Nurhachi’s life would be his third wife, Lady Abahai. She was the birth mother of Princes Ajige, Dorgon, and Dodo. She did not really have a significant role in here as she may have actually had in real history. Her character in here was pretty similar to the real Abahai in history. He became Nurhachi’s official wife after the death of Mong Ge, the birth mother of Huang Taiji.

I hope I did not spoil the series for you if you did plan on watching it? Heheheh!

As you can see, Gundai Fei did not even appear in this series. In fact, her sons, Mangultai and DegeleI were not even mentioned. Well, Mangultai was only referred to when Nurhachi established the council of four Great Bei Le.

Again, Mong Ge would be the personal name of Huang Taiji’s mother in this series, and nothing was mentioned regarding Gundai Fei.

Xie Xie,

[Prince of the South]

Manggultai killed his mother Gundai nee Fuca on the command of his father Nurhaci, February 1620. Gundai was one of Nurhaci principal wives until her death, granted titles Ji Fei and Da Fu Jin. She was daughter of Prince (Duolo Beile) Mangsai Dujugu of the Fuca clan of Mongols. Nurhaci was Gundai second husband and they were divorced in 1620 before Gundai's death.

Gundai allegedly committed adultery with Nurhaci's second son Daishan. Daishan was supposed to be the heir but because of this affair he lost favour. That also explained after Nurhaci's death, Daishan was not really a contender but instead promoted Huangtaiji for the throne. Manggultai, having killed his own mother, naturally was not favoured for the throne, how can you have a king who killed his own mother?

Edited by Prince of the South, 14 March 2007 - 12:20 AM.

[lifezard]

Manggultai killed his mother Gundai nee Fuca on the command of his father Nurhaci, February 1620. Gundai was one of Nurhaci principal wives until her death, granted titles Ji Fei and Da Fu Jin. She was daughter of Prince (Duolo Beile) Mangsai Dujugu of the Fuca clan of Mongols. Nurhaci was Gundai second husband and they were divorced in 1620 before Gundai's death.

Gundai allegedly committed adultery with Nurhaci's second son Daishan. Daishan was supposed to be the heir but because of this affair he lost favour. That also explained after Nurhaci's death, Daishan was not really a contender but instead promoted Huangtaiji for the throne. Manggultai, having killed his own mother, naturally was not favoured for the throne, how can you have a king who killed his own mother?

i have read this somewhere before, somehow i hesitated believing this info was because i had a hard time convincing myself that daishan could have allegedly affairs with both his stepmothers and not escape his father's knives...

[Prince of the South]

Daishan is alleged to have affair with at least one (maybe more?) of Nurhaci's concubines.

Daishan escaped Nurhaci's wrath, there are a few possibilities

1) Daishan, like his older brother Cuyen, was born to Nurhaci's first wife Hahana, daughter of Tabon Bayan of the Tunggiya clan. Cuyen was executed by Nurhaci due to overbearing, insurbodination and treason, Nurhaci was said to be extremely saddened by his first son death, the Jurchens' bravest warrior of his time, the arhatu tumen hong baturu, and vowed never to proclaim a crown prince again in his lifetime, in which arose the succession dispute/mystery/crisis of 1626. Hence, Nurhaci was not willing to kill Daishan, but rather Gundai to die by his son Manggultai's hands.

2) Nurhaci would wish the affair be terminated before it grew out of hand, and since his feelings for Daishan is greater, Gundai was sacrificed and the cover up was complete (so he thought). It was a disgrace to let his people know of this adultery. In some sources, Gundai was said to be killed for stealing. But it was really doubtful as in a stealing offence could bring about a loss of life. Daishan was slated as the heir to the throne of Later Jin, but this episode caused him to lose stature and was less favoured by his ah-ma.

3) Nurhaci still need his second son's effort to conquer the Ming. Daishan was also a warrior hero, a guyen baturu.

It was said when Nurhaci passed away, he designated Dorgon (some say Dodo) to be his successor, his 14th son by his favourite concubine Abahai, in a secret edict and nominated Daishan as the regent. However, Hongtaiji masterminded one of the greatest scheme to enthrone himself. He, with the aid of Daishan, had Abahai commit suicide, destroyed the edict and then rendered the young Dorgon and his brothers hapless. As Daishan (first beile), Amin (second beilie), and Manggultai (third beile) were all not as suitable as the 4th beile Hongtaiji himself, Hongtaiji was ushered into the dragon throne by the recommendation of Daishan, who had been advised by his sons Sahaliyen and Yoto. Why would Daishan favoured Hongtaiji for the throne when it was alleged that Hongtaiji was the schemer that exposed Daishan's affair to Nurhaci in collaboration with Abahai? Daishan's role in Abahai's death could also be justified in this. Comments?

Edited by Prince of the South, 15 March 2007 - 01:25 AM.

[Rong Qin Wang]

Manggultai killed his mother Gundai nee Fuca on the command of his father Nurhaci, February 1620. Gundai was one of Nurhaci principal wives until her death, granted titles Ji Fei and Da Fu Jin. She was daughter of Prince (Duolo Beile) Mangsai Dujugu of the Fuca clan of Mongols. Nurhaci was Gundai second husband and they were divorced in 1620 before Gundai's death.

Gundai allegedly committed adultery with Nurhaci's second son Daishan. Daishan was supposed to be the heir but because of this affair he lost favour. That also explained after Nurhaci's death, Daishan was not really a contender but instead promoted Huangtaiji for the throne. Manggultai, having killed his own mother, naturally was not favoured for the throne, how can you have a king who killed his own mother?

Zunjing de Prince of the South,

Yes, we have already established the fact that Manggultai killed his mother, Gundai Fei, on the command of Nurhachi; however, were there any other reasons to this murder? I mean why would Nurhachi insist on having his son killed his own mother? Was he trying to test Manggultai’s integrity? Why did Manggultai actually follow the command? Did you actually think that by doing so would increase his chances for the throne? Or was he just doing it for the sake of survival?

Thanks for answering my question regarding whether or not Gundai Fei had ever became Nurhachi’s principal wife. Did she become Nurhachi’s principal wife after the death of the mother of Princes Cuyen and Daishan? I surmise Nurhachi had many principal wives; however, only one was posthumously raised to the rank of Empress since she was the birth mother of Huang Taiji.

Was Da Fu Jin the official title for the principal wife of a Grand Khan during Nurhachi’s time? How could Nurhachi divorce Gundai Fei before her death? Were divorces permitted in the later Jin Empire?

Well, there are many rumors regarding Prince Daishan having an affair with his stepmother(s). However, it was not even clear which stepmother Prince Daishan was allegedly having an affair with. I believe most sources indicated it was Lady Abahai. However, there was certainly no real solid proof. Perhaps this was because the rumors were sort of suppressed? Of course, this would ruin Prince Daishan’s status as heir since this action would be deemed as disrespectful to his father. However, since Nurhachi never named another Crown Prince, Prince Daishan still had a chance to seize the throne if he insisted on it. Of course, the race for successor was only between Daishan and Huang Taiji. Being the eldest surviving son, Prince Daishan was naturally at an advantage; however, Huang Taiji was the most powerful and competent prince in terms of military and reputation. Who would want Manggultai as the new Khan when he had killed his mother? If he can be that cruel to his mother, then he certainly would not hesitant to kill anyone else! This is too frightening to even think about! Hehehehe!

Xie Xie,

Edited by Rong Qin Wang, 23 March 2007 - 12:39 AM.

[Rong Qin Wang]

i have read this somewhere before, somehow i hesitated believing this info was because i had a hard time convincing myself that daishan could have allegedly affairs with both his stepmothers and not escape his father's knives...

Zunjing de Lifezard,

Hmm, now you have gotten me a little bit confused here. So, you have read some sources indicating Prince Dai Shan had an affair with Gundai Fei, while other sources suggested he committed adultery with Abahai Da Fei? You are not convinced that Prince Dai Shan would have affairs with two of his stepmothers and not escape his father’s knives? I am having a hard time convincing myself that Prince Dai Shan was having an affair with any of his stepmothers in general. I mean this does not really make a lot of sense to me. What would be Prince Dai Shan’s motives for such affair(s)? Being a prince, I assumed Prince Dai Shan had numerous opportunities to take in many beautiful girls as his concubines; hence, why would he risk getting into troubles with his father? Were his stepmothers so gorgeous that Prince Dai Shan would rather compromise his chances for the throne just to be with them for a little while? This has caused me to arrive to another speculation. Worrying about their future and their son’s after Prince Dai Shan would ascend to the throne, was it possible for Gundai Fei and Abahai Da Fei to have seduced Prince Dai Shan in the first place in hoping of producing an even better relationship with the future Grand Khan?

Well, please keep in mind that this is only a little more than a random guess. Hence, I have absolutely no proof or anything to back it up. So, what do you think? Could this have been a possibility?

Xie Xie,

[Rong Qin Wang]

Daishan is alleged to have affair with at least one (maybe more?) of Nurhaci's concubines.

Daishan escaped Nurhaci's wrath, there are a few possibilities

1) Daishan, like his older brother Cuyen, was born to Nurhaci's first wife Hahana, daughter of Tabon Bayan of the Tunggiya clan. Cuyen was executed by Nurhaci due to overbearing, insurbodination and treason, Nurhaci was said to be extremely saddened by his first son death, the Jurchens' bravest warrior of his time, the arhatu tumen hong baturu, and vowed never to proclaim a crown prince again in his lifetime, in which arose the succession dispute/mystery/crisis of 1626. Hence, Nurhaci was not willing to kill Daishan, but rather Gundai to die by his son Manggultai's hands.

2) Nurhaci would wish the affair be terminated before it grew out of hand, and since his feelings for Daishan is greater, Gundai was sacrificed and the cover up was complete (so he thought). It was a disgrace to let his people know of this adultery. In some sources, Gundai was said to be killed for stealing. But it was really doubtful as in a stealing offence could bring about a loss of life. Daishan was slated as the heir to the throne of Later Jin, but this episode caused him to lose stature and was less favoured by his ah-ma.

3) Nurhaci still need his second son's effort to conquer the Ming. Daishan was also a warrior hero, a guyen baturu.

It was said when Nurhaci passed away, he designated Dorgon (some say Dodo) to be his successor, his 14th son by his favourite concubine Abahai, in a secret edict and nominated Daishan as the regent. However, Hongtaiji masterminded one of the greatest scheme to enthrone himself. He, with the aid of Daishan, had Abahai commit suicide, destroyed the edict and then rendered the young Dorgon and his brothers hapless. As Daishan (first beile), Amin (second beilie), and Manggultai (third beile) were all not as suitable as the 4th beile Hongtaiji himself, Hongtaiji was ushered into the dragon throne by the recommendation of Daishan, who had been advised by his sons Sahaliyen and Yoto. Why would Daishan favoured Hongtaiji for the throne when it was alleged that Hongtaiji was the schemer that exposed Daishan's affair to Nurhaci in collaboration with Abahai? Daishan's role in Abahai's death could also be justified in this. Comments?

Zunjing de Prince of the South,

Yeah, I surmise it was very well-known that Prince Dai Shan had an affair with his stepmother; however, I have never heard of him committing adultery with two of his stepmothers. I sort of considered this as a rumor rather than a fact. Well, it is not even a fact since there were really no proofs as there were only references.

May I ask if you have read about these three possibilities in books? Or were they just a product of your rational reasoning?

I would like to explore some of the possibilities you have mentioned.

1.] Yeah, Nurhachi was so saddened by the death of Prince Cu Yen that he vowed to never appoint another Crown Prince. Perhaps this came with the intention of preventing sibling rivalries. Prince Cu Yen might not have gotten on his brothers’ bad side if he was only proclaimed as the heir in a secret edict, the practice of choosing the successor in secret invented by “Emperor Yong Zheng.” Well, Prince Dai Shan was definitely not the most favored son; however, Nurhachi still liked him to a certain extent. It was possible that Nurhachi did not insist on killing the only two sons of his first wife. In this case, the only other option was to kill Gundai Fei if he wanted to suppress the rumors. However, I have no idea why he had to order Manggultai to kill his own mother. Do you know why he commanded Manggultai to do so?

2.] Yeah, I also really doubt that Gundai Fei was killed because she was charged of stealing. I mean that was not really a severe offense. Of course, even though Nurhachi wanted Prince Dai Shan to stay alive; however, these affairs would seriously compromise his status as the heir. It was probably a great compromise between them that Prince Dai Shan would give up his position for his life.

3.] It is true that Prince Dai Shan was a great warrior and killing him would be sort of a setback for the later Jin to conquer Beijing; however, the conquest would have still been very possible without him since Nurhachi had many other warrior sons. Of course, not all of his sons were capable at administration like Huang Taiji. That is why Qing Taizong was so special. Of course, if Nurhachi really wanted to kill Prince Dai Shan, then he would have to make all the preparations like already have in mind who would later be in charge of the Plain Red Banner. Things would surely not have been very easy; however, it was by all means viable.

Yeah, I have also read about the rumors stating Nurhachi had drafted a secret edict proclaiming Prince Dorgon as his heir and Prince Dai Shan would serve as the regent until Prince Dorgon reached his maturity. However, I have never heard about Prince Dodo ever being the “supposed” successor. May I ask where you have gotten this information regarding Prince Dodo? Even though Prince Dorgon was only 15 years old at that time, he was probably the most favored son of Nurhachi as he was born to Abahai Da Fei, Nurhachi’s favorite concubine. It was true Huang Taiji benefited the most from Abahai’s death; however, he was not the only one who forced her to commit suicide. Being Nurhachi’s favorite concubine, I can assume Abahai would naturally have some other enemies.

I can think of two reasons why Prince Dai Shan would favor Huang Taiji for the dragon throne. Prince Dai Shan expressed his passion and loyalty for the later Jin by passing the seat to his most capable brother. Even though this seems too idealistic, it was still probable since Prince Dai Shan was the most respected prince. Also, he had given up his right for the throne on one other occasion, after Huang Taiji passed away.

The second possibility would be that Prince Dai Shan knew all along that Huang Taiji was the mastermind behind everything, but felt too inferior to him to retaliate. Perhaps he was advised by his two sons to nominate Huang Taiji just for the sake of survival.

Now this is the part where you have gotten me confused. So, there was also a rumor that Huang Taiji was the schemer who exposed Prince Dai Shan’s affair to Nurhachi in collaboration with Abahai? Would not this mean Abahai was not the stepmother whom Prince Dai Shan was allegedly having an affair with? Why would Abahai be in the same boat with Huang Taiji?

Are you suggesting that it was possible for Prince Dai Shan to want Abahai dead as a revenge? Or was his real intention to conceal their secret affair?

Xie Xie,

[MING-LOYALIST]

i have read this somewhere before, somehow i hesitated believing this info was because i had a hard time convincing myself that daishan could have allegedly affairs with both his stepmothers and not escape his father's knives...

Keep in mind the jurchen culture and laws of Nurhaci's time would simply be alien or barbaric to modern day people as well as to the Ming chinese back then. The jurchen society's view on sexuality, property and punishments were very very peculiar before Huang taiji's time. (Eg, Rapists would be spared if he choose to marry the victim, Affiars outside marriage were not viewed as crimes as long as both sides consented, punishments for killing of someone else's servants were to give one of your own servants for compensation. etc...)




BTW about Huang taiji's ascention, one should keep in mind that although he succeded the throne as 'Khan' the power relationship between the Beile's were pretty much equal early on, all the commanders of the banners sat equally with him, it was only through power struggles did he really become 'Khan' and actually sat on a throne above all the other beiles.

Edited by MING-LOYALIST, 23 March 2007 - 06:54 AM.