19 replies to this topic

[yuner]

I'm always curious on the ba qi, how do they originally decide who will be in which one?

[Ashura]

You just have a group of people, divid them into 8 groups and give them each a banner.

It is essentially a military organization.

The descendants of the people of a group will remain in that group. Then you will have 8 units and they will grow themselves.

[yuner]

Oh, I thought that the people were put under each flag because of the area they're from or something like that... well I guess not, then

[Yun]

Recommend you read this book: "The Manchu Way: The Eight Banners and Ethnic Identity in Late Imperial China", by Mark Elliot (2001). Elliot argues that the Manchu Eight Banners were actually the key strategy in constructing a Manchu ethnic identity out of a disparate grouping of Jurchen tribes. If you were in a Banner, then you were a Manchu - it became that simple.

[yuner]

I want to read it!!! But I can't find it in the city library or the bookshops. Do you know if there is a copy of it on the internet?

thanks

[Yun]

You can order it from Amazon.com

[yuner]

I wonder if my parents will let me buy it? Anyway, thank you.

[tadamson]

You can order it from Amazon.com

www.alibris.com also has several second hand copies from under 20 US dollars.

[Suren911]

Blood relations are very important when determining the 8 banners. Closest to the top = higher ranking banner, etc.

[Rong Qin Wang]

Zunjing de China History Forum members,

First and foremost, I would like to thank you Yun the Sage-King for recommending a useful book to read regarding the “Manchu Ba Qi.” I will definitely have my parents purchase that for me as a X-mas present. Since it will take me some time to go searching for this book, there are two questions that I would like to ask because I would like to have answers to them as soon as possible.

How do the Grand Khan/Emperor make the decision on which banners get to be the three upper banners, receiving more prestige and power? Also, since the Grand Khan/Emperor would most likely have a lot of relatives, how would who would be in charge of what banners be determined?

I find the Manchu Ba Qi to be one of the most interesting military organizations since it was unique only to Qing Dynasty, so I would really appreciate any additional information about it.

Xie Xie,

[Whsie]

btw, because the upper 3 banners are called what it is called, are the upper 3 banners stronger than the other 5? Logically speaking, it would actually make sense that the lower 5 banner is stronger AFTER Huang Taji's reign because the emperor himself doesn't personally train his banners anymore while the lower 5 banners were still continualolesy trained.

[Anshao]

any idea whats the name of the 8 Banner? i mean all of them and what they do?

[galvatron prime]

The Manchu 8 Banner during Nurhachi times are

Nurhachi - Plain Yellow and Bordered Yellow ,it only use for Emperor and it sucesssor
Prince Daishan ,Nurhachi 2nd son - Plain Red
Prince Manguitai ,Nurhachi 5th son -Plain Blue
Prince Dorgun Nurhachi 14 son- Plain White
Prince Yoto ,Prince Daishan son -Bordered Red
Prince Amin ,Hurhachi Nephew - Bordered Blue
Prince Dodo,Nurhachi 15 son -Bordered White.

[Rong Qin Wang]

btw, because the upper 3 banners are called what it is called, are the upper 3 banners stronger than the other 5? Logically speaking, it would actually make sense that the lower 5 banner is stronger AFTER Huang Taji's reign because the emperor himself doesn't personally train his banners anymore while the lower 5 banners were still continualolesy trained.

Zunjing de Whsie,

Yep, your deductive reasoning was very accurate since the upper three banners were definitely more powerful and stronger than the lower five banners simply because they were under the direct control of the (future) Grand Khan/Emperor. You have certainly brought up an interesting point since I have never questioned the validity of this statement because I am usually very gullible as I assume everything I read is true. Heheheh! Unlike Nurhachi and Huang Taiji who can be considered as founding Emperors of the Qing Dynasty, Emperor Shun Zhi never really commanded any troops on his own; hence, I highly doubt he would personally train his own troops. This would also give indications that the lower five banners would be stronger than the three upper ones after Huang Taiji’s reign since succeeding Emperors did not personally discipline their three banners anymore since the main focus would now be on administrative affairs. However, would not this be under the assumption that if the Emperors were in charge of training their troops they would be more fierce? I mean not all Emperors were good military trainers. So, I really don’t think it was a big deal for Emperors to not personally discipline their banners since there were others more capable for the job. Of course, this may lead to mistrust between Emperors and their three banners; however, I don’t believe this was ever the case. I suspect the eight banners would be consistently trained regardless of the Emperors’ involvements. Therefore, there would still be not a lot of differences between the functions and capabilities of the three upper banners and the five lower banners.

The most significant change in the banners system occurred in the reign of Yong Zheng. As he had to fight very hard against his brothers for the throne, Emperor Yong Zheng consolidated his authority by placing all eight banners under his direct control. From this point on, the Emperors had absolute power over all eight banners.

[Rong Qin Wang]

The Manchu 8 Banner during Nurhachi times are

Nurhachi - Plain Yellow and Bordered Yellow ,it only use for Emperor and it sucesssor
Prince Daishan ,Nurhachi 2nd son - Plain Red
Prince Manguitai ,Nurhachi 5th son -Plain Blue
Prince Dorgun Nurhachi 14 son- Plain White
Prince Yoto ,Prince Daishan son -Bordered Red
Prince Amin ,Hurhachi Nephew - Bordered Blue
Prince Dodo,Nurhachi 15 son -Bordered White.

Zunjing de Galvatron Xian Sheng,

Thank you so much for providing a list of all the eight banners as well as the “Bei Le” who were in control of them; I greatly appreciate this! I knew I can always count on you to have information on the Qing Dynasty. Hehehe! This is too great of a topic for me to not ask more questions! Hence, I will start firing my inquiries right now.

When Huang Taiji succeeded his father, he would then be in charge of the Plain/Bordered Yellow banners; however, which banner was originally his when he was still the 4th Bei Le?”

It was really obvious that the council of princes (the four Great Bei Le) would each be conferred with one banner; however, why did Prince Yoto, Prince Dai Shan’s son, also made the chieftain of the Bordered Red banner? I don’t recall any other grandsons of Nurhachi receiving this special privilege this early in his reign. I have realized Prince Cuyen was also a commander of one of the banners. So, was Prince Yoto merely filling in Prince Cuyen’s place as the chieftain of the Bordered Red banner since he was an older grandson of Nurhachi? If this was the case, then it would not really make a whole lot of sense since Prince Cuyen also had sons of his own. Should not one of his sons inherit his position? This is only my sort of educated guess; therefore, please don’t hold me accountable for it. Heheheh!

By the way, this was only the eight banners during Nurhachi’s reign. Of course, these princes had to pass away and probably be succeeded by their descendants.

Xie Xie,