89 replies to this topic

[Howard Fu]

Just my personal opinion.
I see the exam as a turning away from what CHF attracted me at first.
What makes CHF special is that it's an English forum on Chinese history.

The quality of some discussions here are better than any book I have read, not to say most internet forums. Like Rome vs Han, Tiananmen Square Event, GLF etc, you simpy can't find serious discussion anywhere else, because most of them are too single sided. But here, you can find all kinds of opinions in one thread, east vs west, left vs right, PRC vs ROC, Chinese vs oversea Chinese vs non-Chinese, scholar vs beginner. Even extremists are one of the reasons to attract me, although I really don't like some of them.

What attract me is CHF's breadth and objective, not its depth and subjective. Why don't I read Shiji but read its English translation, because I'm interested in what Shiji looks like to non-Chinese. Why I don't read Han or Roman scholars book, but read this 80 pages long thread, because the topic is too broad, even most scholars' knowledge are not broad enough to make objective comparison.

Some forummers may not be familliar with Chinese history enough to pass the exam, but they can contribute to the discussions anyway. Like in the Rome vs Han, you don't know Han? that's OK, you can discuss if you know Rome. I suppose the exam will turn such people away. That will be a loss.

I also suppose the exam will turn some beginners away. You need some passion to sit in front of a computer for two hours just to pass an exam about chinese history from a forum. But the best way to help beginners to develop such passion is to let them stay on CHF.

I can understand the desire to create a clean quiet place for elitist academic discussion. But instead of shut others away from CHF, why not create an ivory sub forum, which only those who passed the exam can post?

[Centaur]

What about the examinations for the following?

CHF Promotion Level Exam (called "Juren Exam") - Moderate's Level (Optional)
CHF Supreme Level Exam (called "Jinshi Exam") - Advanced Level (Optional)

What should we be expecting in these exams? What about entry to the Hanlin Academy? what are the criteria for that?

Hope that with the above information, it would give members a chance to know what can be expected down the road.

[Wasabi]

Do I have to take the exam?

[General_Zhaoyun]

What about the examinations for the following?



What should we be expecting in these exams? What about entry to the Hanlin Academy? what are the criteria for that?

Hope that with the above information, it would give members a chance to know what can be expected down the road.

We currently still haven't designed the questions for Juren and Jinshi exam. That'll be in the future.

Entry to Han Lin Academy will be subjected to Staff's choice. If you're chosen to be part of Han Lin Academy, then you're in it. Normally, only people with good knowledge in chinese history and culture will become part of the Han Lin Academy.

Do I have to take the exam?

Yes, you will have to take the exam. Currently, you will have a post of only 30, after which you will become a Xiucai exam candidate, and your posting ability will be disabled until you sit for the exam.

There is no hurry in taking the exam. It's recommended that you take the exam only when you're ready for it.

[Yun]

Some forummers may not be familliar with Chinese history enough to pass the exam, but they can contribute to the discussions anyway.

Again, you don't need to be familiar with the history. You only need to be interested enough to see the questions as a challenge and spend some time finding the answers on CHF or the internet.

Frankly, I don't think members who aren't interested enough in Chinese history to look for their own answers are going to contribute much to the discussions. At least I have not seen them do so. Mostly they are just here to impose their opinions and agendas.

Like in the Rome vs Han, you don't know Han? that's OK, you can discuss if you know Rome. I suppose the exam will turn such people away. That will be a loss.

Not a loss, it seems, to those members who keep complaining that pro-Rome people come to the thread to parade all sorts of ignorant stereotypes about Chinese armies.

Even extremists are one of the reasons to attract me, although I really don't like some of them.

One or two extremists may be funny. But we're getting too many of them, and members are leaving as a result.

But the best way to help beginners to develop such passion is to let them stay on CHF.

And they can stay, even if it's only on the Home to Beginners forum.

But instead of shut others away from CHF, why not create an ivory sub forum, which only those who passed the exam can post?

For the reasons I gave above, Howard. We are not shutting anyone away from CHF per se. Note that there are no IP bans as a result of failing the exam. The elite subforum idea is a bad one because it would create the very strong impression that the only worthy discussion takes place within a select circle on CHF, which is not open to average members. Average members, on the other hand, would mostly be able to pass either the exam or the re-test.

Xng, Ralph, and Howard: We have taken note of your concerns. But there are quite a number of other members who think the exam is a good move. So shall we just agree to disagree for now, and wait and see how things actually turn out instead of being all doom and gloom?

[General_Zhaoyun]

I've received many e-mails from quite a number of members who actually welcome and like the exam system..

CHF is probably the 1st and only forum on the internet to implement online exam system. The system is not designed to scare or frighten beginners, but rather to allow beginners to gauge their own knowledge level and put them in appropriate forum to learn chinese history.

Furthermore, beginners will have the chance to be promoted to learner/scholar member should their knowledge increase in the future.

[Publius]

I support the Hanlin Examination system because it represents what CHF is all about--learning and promoting Chinese history.

The essence of CHF is that it's friendly and readily available to everyone: scholars and beginners alike. Similarly, the exam system is also challenging to scholars and passable for beginners. Scholars can choose not to use the internet/books to test their Chinese knowledge and they can pursue the more advanced/optional degrees. Beginners also have a great opportunity to pass the exam, they just need the desire and patience to pass. The test is not timed, so every examinee can research each question on the web. Though this may take longer, the beginner examinee will learn more about Chinese history and about various web sources.

So, to pass:
1. You must WANT to pass
2. Take your time
3. Research thoroughly

Anything that promotes learning and good study skills is alright by me.

So, happy testing

[Rong Qin Wang]

Zunjing de China History Forum members,

Hmm, after taking the CHF Imperial Exam, I must say this exam really does a good job at testing pretty much all aspects and time periods of Chinese History. There were either one or two questions regarding each era and each topic. However, I do think that this exam was a little too hard for pure beginners as a few of the questions were kind of tricky.

I am sure that most members will agree that this exam barely touches on any area of expertise of several members. Well, this was expected since it is only “supposed” to be a general beginner’s exam.

I do have some questions regarding the exam’s content. Are you allow to discuss exam questions in here?

Xie Xie,

[General_Zhaoyun]

Zunjing de China History Forum
I do have some questions regarding the exam's content. Are you allow to discuss exam questions in here?

Xie Xie,

No, you're not allowed to discuss the exam questions here. If you have query about the exam questions, please PM Yun or me. Exam questions should not be disclosed publicly.

[General_Zhaoyun]

If it's going to be based on someone's subjective evaluation for admission into an upper tiered discussion is one thing; but for basic posting priveleges in the entry level, it runs the risk of being accused of elitistism.



Again my personal opinion is that it would be far easier, and less cumbersome, to just ignore the regular forums and make one special for qualified participants. In this way, even if the posts are of a nature or point of view that we sometimes would not like to see, it nonetheless remains unfiltered. That's a good way of ensuring that all points of view can be represented. Thread hijackers can also be their own worst enemies; by their unprincipled public insistence on certain issues, other thread participants can easily recognize their behavior for what it is.

Regardless, this issue has certainly opened up a can of worms. Perhaps it may be worthwhile to delay total implementation, conduct a poll to see how other forum participants feel, and solicit ideas or other solutions before making any permanent changes. At a minimum, all will be able to input then, and the forum admins can't be accused of not letting everyone have their say.

Ralph

I think you still don't get what CHF educational objective is all about. It isn't about elitism, and neither is the exam going to scare away or deter people from participating. If members are indeed interested in chinese history and culture, they will make every effort to at least to study and pass the exam. Otherwise, they can continue to come to CHF just to read and not post.

We just require all members to have basic knowledge of chinese history in order to continue to participate/post in CHF. The exam will force members to at least go and study or research and know basic chinese history and understand what the topics in CHF is talking about.

We also realize that some members are rather specialized member who know only one aspect of chinese history and culture. In some way, we require all members to have at least a basic grounding in chinese history. For instance, someone who specializes in chinese philosophy would still be required to pass our entry level chinese history and know basic chinese history, before he can continue to participate in CHF. By that, we make sure the education here is well-rounded without the member only knowing one subject and not the other.

The only exception (which we exempt from taking exams) are award winners such as Grand Historians, as well as Professors from University (in chinese history/culture). Professors from University will be required to show a proof of their qualification/certificate before they become "Visiting Scholar (from University)". In most cases, Professors don't really post. They only come to CHF to read or browse or use the forum on occasion to look up facts, or to see what new ideas they might discover.

I've received one e-mail from a Professor in chinese history and Culture at Chinese university (SIAS International).. His name is called Dr. Gary Todd and his name on the forum is called LeeFoxx1949. You can browse his profile at http://www.sias.edu.cn/isp/chcp.htm

[Yun]

However, I do think that this exam was a little too hard for pure beginners as a few of the questions were kind of tricky.

Not to worry - the re-test questions will be relatively simple and suitable for 'pure beginners'.

If a member still cannot pass the re-test, then I would suggest that member is not yet ready to participate actively in any part of the forum besides Home to Beginners. It is not about elitism - we're doing our best to balance the needs of expert-level and beginner-level members, and to protect both from the kind of member that is purely disruptive and irresponsible.

[Thaibebop]

I've received many e-mails from quite a number of members who actually welcome and like the exam system..

CHF is probably the 1st and only forum on the internet to implement online exam system. The system is not designed to scare or frighten beginners, but rather to allow beginners to gauge their own knowledge level and put them in appropriate forum to learn chinese history.

Furthermore, beginners will have the chance to be promoted to learner/scholar member should their knowledge increase in the future.

I support the exams.

[General_Zhaoyun]

On one hand, the exam will be effective in keeping away irrelevant members such as spammers, nationalist, those who have a political agenda in history discussion. Over the past 2 years, as CHF grows larger, there are increasing numbers of such irrelevant members who have absolute no interest in chinese history, who come to CHF to post propaganda based junk that degrade the content of CHF.

I've received an e-mail from a nationalist member who said that he is not interested in chinese history at all. He's only here to bash China and protect minorities such as Koreans/Japanese/Mongols. And he's not going to take the exam. I'm happy that at least the exam will keep members like that away, and CHF will be much cleaner without the junk.

[snowybeagle]

I've received an e-mail from a nationalist member who said that he is not interested in chinese history at all. He's only here to bash China and protect minorities such as Koreans/Japanese/Mongols. And he's not going to take the exam. I'm happy that at least the exam will keep members like that away, and CHF will be much cleaner without the junk.

Was that member sulking?
Was he ranting that he was "cheated"?
What a delicious just dessert for him. Too bad the rest of us can't see him caught with his pants down.

[Yun]

BTW, I just realized that any member who has made 30 posts holds a rank of Provincial Governor according to our ranking system. So all the new members who become Xiucai Exam Candidates would be holding the rank of Provincial Governor.

That's considerably less restrictive than the Ming-Qing system where even a county magistrate had to be at least a Juren!