24 replies to this topic

[Wei Feng]

Why where there so littel inventions in the Qing Dynasty?Why dint the invent someting important like paper

[Yun]

I would argue it's because the examination system became too popular and important in the Ming and Qing. All the smart and ambitious people spent their best years studying Confucian texts that had nothing to do with science or technology.

[Mynheer Peeperkorn]

I haven't read this book yet, but On Their Own Terms: Science in China, 1550-1900 by Benjamin Elman seems to deal with this subject.

[Wei Feng]

I would argue it's because the examination system became too popular and important in the Ming and Qing. All the smart and ambitious people spent their best years studying Confucian texts that had nothing to do with science or technology.

How come the examination system got so popular?

Edited by Wei Feng, 15 November 2006 - 11:14 AM.

[Yun]

Because it became the only route to political success and social prestige.

[Rong Qin Wang]

I would argue it's because the examination system became too popular and important in the Ming and Qing. All the smart and ambitious people spent their best years studying Confucian texts that had nothing to do with science or technology.

Zunjing de Yun the Sage-King,

Well, the low technologies and low rates of development of China became really apparent during the reign of Daoguang. With this in mind, would it be wrong to assume there were some important inventions during the Qing Dynasty that people have overlooked at? I really don’t have a lot of knowledge on this issues; hence, I would have to rely on other sources.

Of course, the examination system was really crucial in the Qing Dynasty; however, was not it also the case for previous dynasties? Was not the examination system the only route to political success and social prestige in all dynasties after the system was further implemented by Han Wudi to avoid nepotism?

As you can see, I really cannot comprehend why the examination system got so much more popular during the Qing Dynasty.

Xie Xie,

[esse]

It was the combination of both Confucianism and isolationism.

Although the examination system started with Tang, it was still in transitional state, in which the old aristocrats dominated the government with their easier access to education and their political inter-connections. The chaos of late Tang and five dynasties and 10 kingdoms largely wiped out class distinction, decimating these old aristocratic families to the point they were non-existing during Song.

Song put further emphasis on examination system, bargaining military efficiency for internal stability (a reaction to the perceived root cause of the chaos during late Tang) by putting the bureaucrats, qualified by examination, on top of governing machinery. Song though was never "the biggest dog in the house", and their huge annual tributes to their militarily stronger northern neighbors forced them to find different sources of income -- oversea trade, which also enabled interaction with foreign technology and inventions. Southern Song was perhaps the most economically and technologically sound of all the great dynasties.

It was after Ming beginning to shut the door that the wheel started to slow to a stall.

[Rong Qin Wang]

It was the combination of both Confucianism and isolationism.

Although the examination system started with Tang, it was still in transitional state, in which the old aristocrats dominated the government with their easier access to education and their political inter-connections. The chaos of late Tang and five dynasties and 10 kingdoms largely wiped out class distinction, decimating these old aristocratic families to the point they were non-existing during Song.

Song put further emphasis on examination system, bargaining military efficiency for internal stability (a reaction to the perceived root cause of the chaos during late Tang) by putting the bureaucrats, qualified by examination, on top of governing machinery. Song though was never "the biggest dog in the house", and their huge annual tributes to their militarily stronger northern neighbors forced them to find different sources of income -- oversea trade, which also enabled interaction with foreign technology and inventions. Southern Song was perhaps the most economically and technologically sound of all the great dynasties.

It was after Ming beginning to shut the door that the wheel started to slow to a stall.

Zunjing de Metronomad,

Yes, I do have to agree with you that completely sticking to Confucianism in its absolute form would eventually lead to isolationism because Confucianism was really about retaining old traditions rather than thinking of new ideas to help improve civilians’ lives.

Hmm, I have always thought the Imperial Exam was created by Han Wudi. Are you sure that the Imperial Exam started with the Tang Dynasty? Or was it just further perfected by the Tang Dynasty; most likely under the reign of Wu Zetian? Yeah, the warring period prior to the founding of Song Dynasty did more damage to the people and the empire than one can imagine. Fortunately, this period only lasted for 53 years from 907-960.

Yup, the first Song Emperor knew the threat of allowing generals to have too much military power. Hence, he decided to concentrate all military power on himself and only dispatched troops to fight wars when necessary. Song Taizu’s decision worked out perfectly as there were virtually no internal rebellions; however, the military was so weak due to its poor daily preparation. As a result, the Song Dynasty was under constant threat of foreign invaders. However, most people also forgot that the Song Dynasty was the richest dynasty in terms of economics and it was also referred to as the Chinese Renaissance.

After Zheng He’s explorations, the Ming Dynasty pretty much went into its dark ages.

I surmise there were not a lot of inventions in the Qing Dynasty because of the importance of passing the Imperial Exam. The Imperial Exam largely focused on Confucianism; hence, mastering this philosophy was the only way to get into the political world with a chance for a better life. There is no doubt Confucianism would only emphasize on following traditions, which would really hinder any modern inventions as they were considered to be too radical.

Xie Xie,

[Yun]

Hmm, I have always thought the Imperial Exam was created by Han Wudi. Are you sure that the Imperial Exam started with the Tang Dynasty? Or was it just further perfected by the Tang Dynasty; most likely under the reign of Wu Zetian?

The Han system was different. Local officials would recommend men under their jurisdiction whom they found worthy of high office. These would then be sent to the capital, where the emperor would personally test them in the imperial palace using questions set by himself or his ministers. Those who answered well would be given posts, with the best answer earning the highest post. The Wei, Jin, and Age of Fragmentation regimes also followed the Han system but modified it such that candidates for official posts were first selected by a local Impartial Evaluator (Zhongzheng) and ranked using a nine-grade system.

The Sui dynasty introduced a more insitutionalized and open imperial exam system in which anyone could register for a basic-level exam without having to be recommended by an official. One then moved up through the exam system as far as one was able or willing to, with the palace exam being the highest-level exam. The Tang dynasty essentially followed the Sui system. However, the majority of office-holders in Sui and Tang times did not enter officialdom through the exam system - there were still other routes to becoming an official. It was in the Song, Ming, and Qing periods that the imperial exam system gradually became the only route to officialdom, and being a scholar and/or official became synonymous with taking and passing exams.

[Rong Qin Wang]

The Han system was different. Local officials would recommend men under their jurisdiction whom they found worthy of high office. These would then be sent to the capital, where the emperor would personally test them in the imperial palace using questions set by himself or his ministers. Those who answered well would be given posts, with the best answer earning the highest post. The Wei, Jin, and Age of Fragmentation regimes also followed the Han system but modified it such that candidates for official posts were first selected by a local Impartial Evaluator (Zhongzheng) and ranked using a nine-grade system.

The Sui dynasty introduced a more insitutionalized and open imperial exam system in which anyone could register for a basic-level exam without having to be recommended by an official. One then moved up through the exam system as far as one was able or willing to, with the palace exam being the highest-level exam. The Tang dynasty essentially followed the Sui system. However, the majority of office-holders in Sui and Tang times did not enter officialdom through the exam system - there were still other routes to becoming an official. It was in the Song, Ming, and Qing periods that the imperial exam system gradually became the only route to officialdom, and being a scholar and/or official became synonymous with taking and passing exams.

Zunjing de Yun the Sage-King,

Thank you very much for your explanation(s)! I am beginning to have some more understandings and knowledge on the Imperial Exam.

The Imperial Exam was instigated by Han Wudi; that is why Empress Lu was able to wield so much power for her and her family because nepotism was the only way to go since the Imperial Exam did not exist in her time. I surmise the Imperial Exam helped stopped the ugly practice of having Wai Qi being too influential in court affairs. The system implemented in the Han Dynasty was already quite advanced for its time even though it was not the best since it was not opened to just anyone. One really must have a connection to enter the officialdom.

Hmm, did not some office-holders in the Sui and Tang times did not have to go through the exam system to enter officialdom because some of the positions were actually hereditary?

Oh, now I have realized the importance of passing Imperial Exams during the Qing Dynasty as that would be the only way to enter officialdom to hope for a better life.

By the way, I would like to confirm that it was technically “illegal” for people to buy or sell positions in court. Were there any dynasties where people were permitted to buy/sell positions in court?

Xie Xie,

[Yun]

Hmm, did not some office-holders in the Sui and Tang times did not have to go through the exam system to enter officialdom because some of the positions were actually hereditary?

Yes, there was a system called 'yin' (literally 'shelter') in which an official could recommend at least one of his relatives or family members for an official post. This is not exactly hereditary, but it means that quite a number of officials were able to recommend their son for a post this way.

By the way, I would like to confirm that it was technically “illegal” for people to buy or sell positions in court. Were there any dynasties where people were permitted to buy/sell positions in court?

It was technically illegal unless the emperor himself wanted to use the selling of posts to raise money for his court. The earliest case of the emperor selling posts was in the late Eastern Han, if I am not mistaken.

[Rong Qin Wang]

Yes, there was a system called 'yin' (literally 'shelter') in which an official could recommend at least one of his relatives or family members for an official post. This is not exactly hereditary, but it means that quite a number of officials were able to recommend their son for a post this way.
It was technically illegal unless the emperor himself wanted to use the selling of posts to raise money for his court. The earliest case of the emperor selling posts was in the late Eastern Han, if I am not mistaken.

Zunjing de Yun the Sage-King,

Hmm, so based on the system of “Yin,” ministers were able to recommend at least one of their relatives or family members for official posts? Of course, a lot of the ministers would take advantage of this and recommend their sons for court positions. You are right; even though ministers could give out recommendations, this system was not exactly hereditary either. I have two more questions. After these ministers handed in their recommendations, were their requests accepted most of the times? Also, was it impossible for a minister to nominate his son to take his place when he passed away?

I cannot believe some Emperors would even sell court position just so they could have more money. They would more likely spend the fund on leisure activities.

Hmm, I think I know which Eastern Han Emperor you are referring to. Would you be talking about Han Lingdi, who was one of the last Emperors of Eastern Han? Due to his mother’s low status, Han Lingdi grew up in a very poor environment; hence, he could be extremely greedy at times. When he became the Emperor, he was encouraged by his mother to sell court positions in order to obtain more money to satisfy their avarice. This was probably the most famous incident regarding official posts being directly sold by the Emperor and Empress Dowager themselves. Have I acknowledged all the correct information?

Xie Xie,

[Tibet Libre]

Why where there so littel inventions in the Qing Dynasty?Why dint the invent someting important like paper

Not only in the Mandchu dynasty, but already during the Ming dynasty. People tend to interpolate too much from Song China. In fact, after 1250, Chinese innovativeness practically dried up, and the technological level of Chinese society remained stagnant, if not receding. 700 years of sidewards movement followed.

[Wei Feng]

What if the exams ware not so popular would the then pay more aattention to Inventions?
and is it not a prestege to make Invention?

[Rong Qin Wang]

Not only in the Mandchu dynasty, but already during the Ming dynasty. People tend to interpolate too much from Song China. In fact, after 1250, Chinese innovativeness practically dried up, and the technological level of Chinese society remained stagnant, if not receding. 700 years of sidewards movement followed.

Zunjing de Tibet Libre,

Yeah, I also had a feeling China’s decline in technologies did not just occur in the Qing Dynasty since they pretty much took over the Ming government with the same structure with only a few modifications.

Some people have argued that China’s decline in technologies started when Zheng He’s voyages were stopped by the Ming government. I still have to look more into this topic; however, my first impression would be thinking this claim is false since I cannot link explorations to technologies. I know they can overlap sometimes, but not necessarily all the time.

Despite having one of the weakest military, the Song Dynasty was always being referred to as the “Chinese Renaissance.” It was also an economic powerhouse. Was not gun powder invented in this dynasty? The Song Dynasty had some pretty advanced technologies for its era. Hence, why did the scientific progress dry up in 1250? Can you further elaborate on this? Was this because of the future Mongol invasion(s)?

If Chinese innovations had already remained stagnant for a few hundreds of years prior to the Qing Dynasty, then the Qing Dynasty does not have to take the entire blame for China’s years of humiliations.

Xie Xie,