26 replies to this topic

[wlee15]

Richard ,
I do not know the answer to that, but I do have pictures of water vats in the Forbidden City.
They are called menhai / sea by door.

I can't tell if the menhai are under the eaves, but even if the are, they would not catch much of the water.

Those were used to hold water to fight fires.

[rooster]

Interesting picture. At first I thought,"too bad the sun was not behind you so that you could have gotten a clearer picture".
The sculptures are impressive.

As I was looking at the picture, I noticed that in the back ground was what looked like a huge pine tree.

I realized that this was an illusion caused by the position of the sun causing the building on the hilltop to be blurry as if in fog.

I'm sure there must be a logical and functional explanation for that development of the curve roof, but I wonder if part of the reason that particular style of curved roof developed was for that exact illusion.
I have read that in Chinese Symbolism that very old pine trees are thought of as turning into dragons. The curvy serpentine shape and the rough bark looks like scales.

I don't know whether the sun in this picture was rising or setting and it doesn't really make a difference.
It would be nice if the sun was rising as I read that the character for the word East was the sun rising up thru the trees on the horizon.

By accident or on purpose, how wonderful that you captured those images

The photo was taken at 5.30pm or so, so it is the setting sun.

Publius is right - CAS Williams said in his book that the concave roof is to allow rain to move faster at the top and then accelerate dwon to the flatter tip in order to be thrown off furthest away from the building. He went to say that this concave roof originated from the TENT, which must have been the first shelter structure outside after the caves. This concave roof has since been used in temples, pagodas and houses. Think about that!

I have zoomed in the photo for you to take a closer look.

[Publius]

Is the water runoff from these roofs then channeled into underground cisterns such as one finds in some Mediterranean (Roman) houses? Just curious.

Not that I'm aware of ... any confirmation on this?

[kaiselin]

Those were used to hold water to fight fires.

Yes, you are correct.
I am sorry, I forgot to add that.
The name menhai means sea by door, indicating the symbolic protection of keeping water (the sea) near the house.
the building shown is the Wenyuan pavilion. It was used for storing books. Hence the need for extra fire protection.
Although the pictures do not show the color of the roof tiles, they are black instead of the usual gold tiles found in the Forbidden City.
Black being the color of water. Again symbolic protection against fire.

Edited by kaiselin, 26 March 2007 - 10:11 AM.

[kaiselin]

The photo was taken at 5.30pm or so, so it is the setting sun.

Publius is right - CAS Williams said in his book that the concave roof is to allow rain to move faster at the top and then accelerate dwon to the flatter tip in order to be thrown off furthest away from the building. He went to say that this concave roof originated from the TENT, which must have been the first shelter structure outside after the caves. This concave roof has since been used in temples, pagodas and houses. Think about that!

I have zoomed in the photo for you to take a closer look.

Thanks Rooster,
Love the dragon topiaries , couldn't see them in the smaller pic.

Thanks for sharing the photo.

Edited by kaiselin, 26 March 2007 - 11:26 PM.

[kaiselin]

Pangu is thought to be a Miao creationist legend adopted by the Chinese because there was no competiting mythology (The Yellow Emperor "founded" the civilization, he didn't "create" the human race)

Before the Five Di-Emperors (including the Yellow Emperor) regarded as the founders of the Chinese civilization, there are the earlier three Huang-Emperors who founded or invented the age of hunting (Fu-xi), fire (Sui-ren) & agriculture (Shen-nong). The legends don't come from one source and are therefore not "coherent"-- e.g. Nu Wa the creator of the human race and Nu Wa the consort of Fu-xi
The Western Queen Mother is thought to be an important female tribal leader who also found her way into Chinese mythology-- her "appearances", like Nu Wa,is not always consistent.

Just like each video game re-tells its own "version" European history/ mythology-- different sources will give you different versions of the same legends.

The video versions of mythology is a very good example of how the stories in mythology evolve. I have been amazed at the wealth of knowledge my son has when we discuss mythology and metaphysical aspects. When I ask him where he learned something, the answer will be such and such video game. BTW it is not just European history /mythology that is being used and evolving. He often knows more of an aspect regarding Asian myth then I do, and he has not studied it. The good side of this is that these games are a teaching device, but the bad is that although the basic idea is learned, the original story is warped by each new game.


In his first post, Ghost of Han stated;

Nu Wa was Fu Xi's wife. Interestingly enough some how they were also brother and sister. Reason that is so weird is Nu Wa was a god all her life and Fu Xi was not. She was the god of marriage, she granted children,

Maybe I can explain the question about the sister/ brother/ goddess/ lover myth.

The mother/sister, lover/ son theme is common in most of the earliest mythology in western, mid eastern and Indian cultures.
It seems from the brief story above that it is also true in China.

It is always a nature based matriarchal religion.
The mother/sister always represents the earth[the Mother Earth Goddess].
The lover fertilizes the earth and the two make the son.
These religions all celebrate the seasons.

The mother/sister is always the same immortal Goddess, the lover/son are reborn each new spring, dies each Fall.

The names are interchangeable. Each culture puts its own spin on the story, but what stays the same is the Goddess Mother Earth mates with the New Year fertilizing the earth for a bountiful harvest and many animals to be born so that the hunt would be successful.
Nu Wa, the immortal Goddess is described as a snake with a head of a woman, a Naga from Indian mythology. Fu Xi is the lover/son. He is the mortal that is reborn each year to create the harvest. In his sacrifice and cyclical rebirth he becomes the immortal mate of the earth.

The lover/son is sacrificed and buried into the earth( planting the seed) his marriage to the Goddess / mother Earth is consummated and he becomes immortal.

Edited by kaiselin, 27 March 2007 - 10:50 AM.

[kaiselin]

I found some myths.

Nu Wa invented the mouth organ , codified religious music of China, and the flute.
She created human beings from figures of clay which she baked in an oven. Some got over done, which accounts for the black races; others were taken out too soon and these are the white races.
Another tradition tells us that once upon a time a brother and sister named Fu Xi and Nu Wa lived in the Kunlun. No one else existed. They did not wish to contract an incestuous marriage, so they sought the advice of the oracle by letting two clouds of smoke ascend upwards: these united in the sky, a sign that it was their duty to marry. When intercourse took place Fu Xi thought it was proper to cover his brides face - which is what many woman still do, according to an old text. ( sure hope that custom has changed )
Note the clouds of smoke are symbolized in the entwining of their tails.

In the above picture Nu Wa holds a pair of compasses.(according to the picture in the book, but the picture I posted they look like scissors which are more often seen in most cultures) They are the sacrificial tool, She measures out life and takes life.

Fu Xi invented marrage, fishing and the fish net as well as the Bagua . He holds a carpenters square, which is the symbol of building and architecture. It also serves as the symbol of the magic and curative forces in nature.
(Eberhard , A dictionary of Chinese Symbols)

The idea of architecture and magic both being symbolized by the carpenters square. , is just like the observation of the picture Rooster posted of the temple on the hill that has a silhouette or a pine tree. There may very well be a scientific reason why the eaves are built like that, but there also a symbolic reason.

[kaiselin]

According to Mackenzie in "Myths of China and Japan", Nu Wa is the Great Mother. She contained "soul substance' which made shells, pearls , gold, silver and jade.
(Note that in the above line drawing of the Naga with two heads, ( their body is intertwined as one, but we can't see it because it is hidden by the clouds) one is Fu Xi and the other is Nu Wa, she has the flame above her head. Also note that the first picture appears to be Chinese art, the second two look Tibetan or Indian art.)
Nu WA was the mythical Chinese Empress, sister of Fu Xi. She stopped the Deluge She planned the path of the Celestial river (made the stars)[I think that the dots and lines surrounding the couple in the first picture are representing the stars in the Chinese zodiac.] Nu Wa created the Dragons. ( being a dragon form herself this means that she is the mother of all dragons. The myth does not say that Fu xi is the father or not, but it is implied) Some of those dragons were the ancestors to the Emperors of China. She is credited with re erecting one of the four pillars that supported the firmament. She created jade for mankind.
Fu Xi was the Chinese Adam, He had a miraculous conception, and had dealings with Dragons.
There are some lists of the nine sons that mention FuXi as one of the sons.
That would mean his miraculous conception is him being born to Nu Wa. This would fit, as that same theme is echoed in many of the other ancient stories.
Are not the people of China called "The Children of the Dragon"?


Like the Babylonian Ea, he instructed the people how to live civilized lives. Before him, they lived like animals, they knew their mothers but not their fathers and ate raw flesh. He instructed them in the mysteries of lineal figures which had mystic significance.

If he is "the Adam" where did the other people come from.

This statement parallels the story in the Bible of how even though Adam and Eve were supposed to be the parents of us all, yet it also mentions "other people".

Edited by kaiselin, 27 March 2007 - 11:32 AM.

[kaiselin]

I was looking at your post that you are starting a ChinaHistoyinfo page and I like the idea, and figured this would be one of the first pieces in there. I remeber that one of these gods was given criedt for creating the whistle, anyone know. (I just don't want one of our first articles incomplete.

Nu wa is credited for inventing the whistle, the mouth organ, codified religious music of China, and the flute.

[mohistManiac]

Unless I am mistaken these creation myths are passed down from father to son and mother to daughter from generation to generation until Sima Qian compiled them in his works right? What is the most inclusive compendium of Chinese creation myths in ancient China before Sima Qian's time? Would he have had access to these sources as well?

[Gan]

Unless I am mistaken these creation myths are passed down from father to son and mother to daughter from generation to generation until Sima Qian compiled them in his works right? What is the most inclusive compendium of Chinese creation myths in ancient China before Sima Qian's time? Would he have had access to these sources as well?

Maybe it was passed down through song?

I'm just making a guess. I've heard from people that using rhythmic tones was often used by people to remember and passed on information for those who weren't literate, or had access to some type of pictorial record.

[mohistManiac]

Maybe it was passed down through song?

I'm just making a guess. I've heard from people that using rhythmic tones was often used by people to remember and passed on information for those who weren't literate, or had access to some type of pictorial record.

It might be along those lines. What about the teachings of famous sages like Mozi and Laozi who gave righteous due to the forces of nature (the dao) and even the spiritual realm as a mysterious offset encompassing the perception of their total reality? Would they be the first to write things down regarding the myths people had at the time in the regions they lived? I have a feeling many myths were somehow passed from the Shang as well since I read somewhere that the people during that dynasty were deeply religious to the point of the elite burying human sacrifice underneath buildings as a way to bolster to the spiritual connection of their palaces to their gods or deities.