19 replies to this topic

[bayonet]

[thirdgumi]

Wow, where did you get this? Was this letter intended for Toyotomi Hideoshi?

[Shogun 144]

Yes it indeed it was, this letter caused an internation incident actually.


In 1593 a ceasefire was declared and the Japanese began to pull out, the Ming did the same, both sides never pulled out completely. Three years they sent a envoy to meet with Hideyoshi after some diplomatic talks. The envoy carried the letter shown above. Unfortunatly the letter was interperated as being.... arrogant by the Japanese. In short the Wanli Emperor was offering Toyotomi Hideyoshi the title "King of Japan" if he completed his pull out. Hideyoshi percieved it as insulting the Tenno, believed to be divine, by undermining his authority with titles the Ming did not have the right to give. Hideyoshi decided to insult the Wanli Emperor back by pretending to go along but demanding he be given a daughter of the Ming house, a Joeson prince, and the four southern province of Korea in return. To say the least the talks broke down and the Japanese re-invaded in 1597.

Edited by Shogun 144, 26 November 2006 - 09:29 PM.

[snowybeagle]

Where was this letter found?

It seems that court letters from all over the world are long-winded.

[Ashura]

I thought it is always there. Japan has at least one of the copies.

[bayonet]

Where was this letter found?

my computer dude

[Yang Zongbao]

Oh? So this is a copy? If it is, a modern reproduction or a reprint at that time?

Or is this the actual letter dating from the period?

[wlee15]

If it is an original it most certianly been kept in a well protected archive.

[bayonet]

sorry, no idea where the photos were taken. Chances are that they are displayed at some site where I got a visit and download them. It was long ago so basicly I cant remember anything about it.

[Sephodwyrm]

Notice we are giving him a few hats, a few capes and the title of King.

It was a time when our tool was still huge.

Edited by Sephodwyrm, 03 December 2006 - 01:05 PM.

[Shogun 144]

When I think about it there is something I want to add here....

Did the Ming send this letter fully aware of how insulting it would be to Hideyoshi to offer him the title king behind the back of the Tenno? I mean did they really think that the Taiko would not notice he was being insulted? Or was it something else entirely? I got a couple theories.

Number One: The Ming did indeed just send the letter to insult Toyotomi Hideyoshi, but thought he would be too dense to notice or not care. Arrogance plays a factor here. If this is true then the whole mess has to be the stupidest move China made with Japan.

Number Two: There was a problem in the translation from Chinese to Japanese and whole mess was a misunderstanding. The Ming did not mean to insult Hideyoshi and their peace offer to the Taiko was sincere. This raises the question of why someone did not check to make sure that the letter was accurately translated.

Number Three: China had forgotten the reverence that the Japanese placed on their Emperor and they did not mean to insult Hideyoshi by appearing to undermine the Tenno. If this is true then the Chinese must have had a giant slip of memory.


Personally I am more inclined to put stock in number two, simply because I just find mind boggling that the Ming seriously thought Hideyoshi was dense. I also find mind boggling that they would have forgotten the reverence the Japanese had for thier Emperor. I believe that the letter was mistranslated and Hideyoshi went bonkers over a mistranslation.

Sad ain't it?

[snowybeagle]

Number Three: China had forgotten the reverence that the Japanese placed on their Emperor and they did not mean to insult Hideyoshi by appearing to undermine the Tenno. If this is true then the Chinese must have had a giant slip of memory.

I am really doubtful if the Tenno was all that revered at that time ... there were various reasons why the Japanese kept him around ... including I perceive, the shoguns were more keen on holding on to real power rather than nominal titles and carrying out symbolic rituals ... and the fact that the dynastic changes might lead to instability - shoguns ultimately depend on alliances ...

I think Ming probably understood too well the Tenno being a powerless puppet ruler ... they had plenty of those in history of China, starting from the Zhou kings.

[snowybeagle]

Bear in mind too that to Ming, Japan was just another barbarian state encroaching on one of Ming's vassal.

Ming had numerous vassals then. One of them was the then nascient state of Malacca, which received Ming's protection from the Siam kingdom.

The only significant difference was that Ming expended a lot of resources and suffered heavy casualties defending Korea against Japanese encroachment, but I doubt if they saw the Japanese threat as being any greater than their traditional threats from the northern nomads.

The method they used were probably similar to how they made offers to warlords from Vietnam or the Tartars - these warlords might nominally owe allegiance to their own "Khans", and Ming had successfully in previous encounters gain peace by offering to recognise these warlords as "Khans" in their own right.

[Shogun 144]

Ah thank you Snowybeagle, what you said clears up alot for me. If I may clear up something:


I understand full well that the Tenno was a powerless puppet ruler, I mean the Imperial line was powerless for centuries by Hideyoshi's time. It's just that I was always under the impression that to the Japanese some things were reserved for only the Tenno to do. Like appoint a Prince, or as some translations suggest, King. No Shogun ever appointed a Prince, even though they had the power, de facto, to do so.


I am sorry if it appears that I am taking the Japanese side here, it' just that the whole incident has always been so confusing for me.

[JB_Xyooj]

Ah thank you Snowybeagle, what you said clears up alot for me. If I may clear up something:
I understand full well that the Tenno was a powerless puppet ruler, I mean the Imperial line was powerless for centuries by Hideyoshi's time. It's just that I was always under the impression that to the Japanese some things were reserved for only the Tenno to do. Like appoint a Prince, or as some translations suggest, King. No Shogun ever appointed a Prince, even though they had the power, de facto, to do so.
I am sorry if it appears that I am taking the Japanese side here, it' just that the whole incident has always been so confusing for me.

From your statement and snow statement... I'll have to side with your first option...
considering that the Ming viewed the Taiko as a Barbarian, instead of a civilized person...
then arrogance play the role of this insult... thus ending up in another invasion of Korea.