128 replies to this topic

[General_Zhaoyun]

For all those who know chinese culture, "Dragon" (also known as Long 龙" in chinese) has been the traditional icon (totem) in chinese culture. Not only was it an auspicious creature in chinese culture, it was also a representation of emperor in ancient times.

However, recently, there was actually a great debate in mainland China about the cultural icon of "Dragon". Some people commented that China should change this "Dragon" name to a chinese name "Loong". The reason is partly due to the fact that in western culture, "dragon" was seen to be an evil monster/creature, and for that reason, "Dragon" would bring a bad image to chinese. Dragon seems to be perceived as somewhat evil in western christianity.

I'm not sure what you think about this. But I personally think "Dragon" is traditonal cultural icon for the chinese and one should not just simply change this tradition b'cos of western cultural perception. I think, the chinese traditional icon of dragon should be established as a worldwide cultural brand, rather than being shrunk by western influence.

[Note: There is a chinese article report that "slam" the use of dragon as a cultural icon for the chinese at http://gb.cri.cn/908...165@1333416.htm]

What do you think of this? Do you agree that 'dragon" should no longer be the cultural icon for chinese?

[Kimchee]

For all those who know chinese culture, "Dragon" (also known as Long 龙" in chinese) has been the traditional icon (totem) in chinese culture. Not only was it an auspicious creature in chinese culture, it was also a representation of emperor in ancient times.

However, recently, there was actually a great debate in mainland China about the cultural icon of "Dragon". Some people commented that China should change this "Dragon" name to a chinese name "Loong". The reason is partly due to the fact that in western culture, "dragon" was seen to be an evil monster/creature, and for that reason, "Dragon" would bring a bad image to chinese. Dragon seems to be perceived as somewhat evil in western christianity.

I'm not sure what you think about this. But I personally think "Dragon" is traditonal cultural icon for the chinese and one should not just simply change this tradition b'cos of western cultural perception. I think, the chinese traditional icon of dragon should be established as a worldwide cultural brand, rather than being shrunk by western influence.

[Note: There is a chinese article report that "slam" the use of dragon as a cultural icon for the chinese at http://gb.cri.cn/908...165@1333416.htm]

What do you think of this? Do you agree that 'dragon" should no longer be the cultural icon for chinese?

As a westerner, I've always associated the Dragon with China... I suppose I equate it to strength. I certainly hope that western influence doesn't change this symbol that has been used for thousands of years. I find I get a little upset when all cultures start adopting "western" or American culture... because each culture needs to remain unique. I even find I wince a little when I hear people from other countries singing hip hop and wearing baggy clothes like American inner city kids, for example. What's that all about?

Yes, it's true in European mythology, it was the dragon that was fed the virgin every year so that it wouldn't go on it's rampage and burn crops and kill thousands in its wrath. Definitely a bad guy. But, I thought most people knew that the Chinese, as most Asian cultures, revered the dragon because it WAS different in their legends.

http://en.wikipedia..../Chinese_dragon

I think the dragon should stay as China's icon. Most definitely.

Kimchee

[Yun]

Sentimentality aside...

The long ('dragon') as a "cultural icon" of the Chinese is actually more a modern myth than a historical reality or an ancient tradition. Until the long was placed on the first ever Chinese state flag in the late 19th century, under influence from European national flags, it was never used to represent the Chinese people as a whole. Instead it was the symbol of the emperor (and arguably, even the Qing state flag was meant to represent the imperial dynasty rather than the people). Alternatively the Blue Dragon (qinglong) was used to symbolize the east and the element of Wood, but in ancient battles the emperor's authority was actually symbolized by a banner with the White Tiger, which represented the west and the element of Metal (because metal is the element of warfare).

There was some worship of Dragon Kings in rural communities of ancient China. But the evidence seems to be that these were not indigenous beliefs, but actually borrowed from the Naga Kings of Indian Buddhist mythology.

My suggestion is that the use by various European or American countries of animals as national symbols (e.g. the lion for Britain, the bald eagle for the US) may have inspired the Chinese to adopt the long as a national symbol as well, even after the imperial institution was abolished. From that we got the slogan that the Chinese are "descendants of the long" (which was actually the title of a patriotic song of the 20th century). Chinese historians, trying to explain how this 'symbol' originated, then proposed that it was the totem of Huangdi's tribe. But judging from the Shiji record, Huangdi's totem is more likely to have been the bear (since his tribe was the Youxiong, i.e. 'with bear').

I recently read that Chinese historians are trying to get Fuxi (also known as Taihao) recognized as the originator of the long totem, based mainly on a passage from the Zuozhuan 左傳 :

秋, 郯 子 來 朝. 公 與 之 宴, 昭
子 問 焉, 曰, 少 皞 氏 鳥 名 官,
何 故 也. 郯 子 曰, 吾 祖 也, 我
知 之, 昔 者 黃 帝 氏 以 雲 紀,
故 為 雲 師 而 雲 名, 炎 帝 氏
以 火 紀, 故 為 火 師 而 火 名,
共 工 氏 以 水 紀, 故 為 水 師
而 水 名, 大 皞 氏 以 龍 紀, 故
為 龍 師 而 龍 名, 我 高 祖 少
皞 摯 之 立 也, 鳳 鳥 適 至, 故
紀 於 鳥, 為 鳥 師 而 鳥 名...

(昭 公 17 )

This passage has the Lord of Tan 郯 telling Zhaozi 昭子 of Lu that Huangdi, Yandi, and Gonggong had the totems of clouds, fire, and water respectively, while Taihao (i.e. Fuxi) had the totem of the long and Shaohao (who is supposedly the Lord of Tan's ancestor) had the totem of the 'phoenix' (fengniao, 鳳鳥). He also claims that these legendary rulers all gave their officials titles related to their totems. Whether there is any reliability to the Lord's claim is anyone's guess.

However, it should be noted that there is no indication in this passage that there is anything special about the long, or that it represents an entire ethnic group. So how the long later became the emperor's symbol remains a mystery. But how the long came to symbolize a whole country and culture is not so much of a mystery to me - it was a deliberate choice made during the reinvention of China as a nation-state during the 20th century, just like the selection of the Great Wall and even the giant panda as national symbols.

[urofpersia]

However, it should be noted that there is no indication in this passage that there is anything special about the long, or that it represents an entire ethnic group. So how the long later became the emperor's symbol remains a mystery. But how the long came to symbolize a whole country and culture is not so much of a mystery to me - it was a deliberate choice made during the reinvention of China as a nation-state during the 20th century, just like the selection of the Great Wall and even the giant panda as national symbols.

Excellent and very enlightening! Do you have any idea who came up with the phrase "龙的传人"? Now I can go around telling people its just modern invention.

[Yun]

Here's a list of other threads dealing with the long:

http://www.chinahist...p...3&hl=dragon

http://www.chinahist...p...4&hl=dragon

http://www.chinahist...p...5&hl=dragon

http://www.chinahist...p...7&hl=dragon

http://www.chinahist...p...3&hl=dragon

http://www.chinahist...p...1&hl=dragon

http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=7815

I would recommend members to look through at least some of them before participating in this thread, so that we can have a balanced discussion rather than just a series of outraged protests against any notion of stripping China of its beloved 'traditional icon'.

[Yun]

Do you have any idea who came up with the phrase "龙的传人"?

The story is a pretty ironic one.

The phrase came from the title of a famous song written by the Taiwanese songwriter Hou Dejian 侯德健 in 1978. Hou wrote it as a protest against the USA switching its diplomatic recognition from the ROC to the PRC - his message was that the ROC was still the true heir of Chinese culture, even though it was in exile on Taiwan. The song quickly became a hit in Taiwan, but Hou himself defected to the PRC in 1983, leading to all his songs (including this one) being banned in the ROC.

Then in 1989, he went on a hunger strike to show support for the Tiananmen protestors, and was deported from the PRC, back to Taiwan. He migrated to New Zealand in 1992, and is now an expert on Yijing divination, as well as a movie producer (his animated film "Lady White Snake" is scheduled for release in 2008).

See http://wujianking.bl...m/21856886.html
http://wujianking.bl...m/21861681.html
http://zh.wikipedia..../wiki/侯德健

Li Jianfu, the original Taiwanese singer who recorded the song, is now a businessman in the internet line - he was one of the founders of Sina.com, and was the CEO of Yahoo's Taiwan HQ from 1998 to 2003: http://tech.sina.com...301267413.shtml

The lives of these two men are themselves a reflection of the vicissitudes of Chinese history in the late 20th century.

[urofpersia]

The phrase came from the title of a famous song written by the Taiwanese songwriter Hou Dejian 侯德健 in 1978. Hou wrote it as a protest against the USA switching its diplomatic recognition from the ROC to the PRC - his message was that the ROC was still the true heir of Chinese culture. The song quickly became a hit in Taiwan, but Hou himself defected to the PRC in 1983, leading to all his songs (including this one) being banned in the ROC.

Actually many of us here know of the song, but I didn't realise this the phrase originated with it! I had thought the songwriter got the phrase from somewhere else.

In fact this phrase became popular, you can hear it in many movies from HK and many websites online try to explain the origin of the phrase by digging into legends.

Well done!

[Yun]

Yeah, it's funny to know that the phrase is only two years older than I am, and is younger than my elder brother (since he was born in July 1978 and the song was written in December)...

That hasn't stopped people mouthing the cliche that the Chinese have "traditionally called themselves 'descendants of the dragon'". Well, I guess it has been traditional for 28 years or so.

I think we should get GZ to design a "Busted" seal to put up for every myth that's busted on CHF, just like that Mythbusters show on the Discovery channel

[fcharton]

I think we should get GZ to design a "Busted" seal to put up for every myth that's busted on CHF, just like that Mythbusters show on the Discovery channel

What about a chinese urban legend thread?

[Kimchee]

Thank you, Yun, for all of your explanations. I really was under the impression that the Dragon was used as a "country icon" so to speak... didn't realize that it was only a representation that the Emperor used. Not a national symbol. I didn't know about the tiger and bear being used either. Interesting.

I still think that the Dragon should be continued in use... it's a very powerful symbol, just like the country.

Kimchee

[Master Ghost Valley]

Here's a list of other threads dealing with the long:

http://www.chinahist...p...3&hl=dragon

http://www.chinahist...p...4&hl=dragon

http://www.chinahist...p...5&hl=dragon

http://www.chinahist...p...7&hl=dragon

http://www.chinahist...p...3&hl=dragon

http://www.chinahist...p...1&hl=dragon

http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=7815

I would recommend members to look through at least some of them before participating in this thread, so that we can have a balanced discussion rather than just a series of outraged protests against any notion of stripping China of its beloved 'traditional icon'.

Hi Yun:
I think there is a difference between what some people in China think the Western world perceives the dragon symbol to be and what the Western World perceives it to be. As part of the Western World I can say with confidence that all of the people I am in everyday contact with, when they see the Dragon symbol they think of China. Like the Eiffel tower to a us means France, The coliseum means Rome, The statue of Liberty means America ......and on and on. The Dragon or the Eiffel Tower symbol to me is not something that denotes a favorable or an unfavorable impression but a symbol of association.

Therefore my feeling as an outsider, a non Chinese ( and really an ultimate user of the dragon symbol) is in agreement with views of Kimchee those kindred spirits to the Kimchee posture on this issue.

Well wishes
Master Ghost Valley

[Yun]

Like the Eiffel tower to a us means France, The coliseum means Rome, The statue of Liberty means America ......and on and on.

If distinctive architecture is to be used as a symbol of a country, then China's symbol should be the Forbidden City or the Great Wall, or even the Temple of Heaven.

The long, being a heraldic symbol of the monarchy, is more akin to the old fleur-de-lis in France, the chrysanthemum flag in Japan, the royal coat of arms of Britain, or the US President's flag and coat of arms.

UK:

Japan:

US:

If the above coats of arms are not regarded as national symbols or symbols of an entire people, but only as symbols of a single political leader or dynastic house, then I see no reason why the long should represent the whole of China. However, it seems that the long is useful for political cartoonists because it's an easy way to represent China, just like Uncle Sam for the US, John Bull for Britain, Marianne for France, the bear for Russia, and a samurai or sumo wrestler(!) for Japan. The panda was once used more often as a symbol of China by cartoonists, but since the mid-1990s I think the dragon symbol has overtaken it, perhaps because the Chinese themselves have no great enthusiasm for the panda.

[Yun]

BTW, even in the late 19th century, China was not represented by a dragon in European cartoons. The standard symbol was a far less flattering one:



[A shocked mandarin in Manchu robe in the back, with Queen Victoria (UK), Wilhelm II (Germany), Nicholas II (Russia), Marianne (France), and a samurai (Japan) stabbing into a plate with Chine ("China" in French) written on it.]



[Lord Elgin ordering the Qing emperor to kneel to him, after the Second Anglo-Chinese War.]

[Master Ghost Valley]

If distinctive architecture is to be used as a symbol of a country, then China's symbol should be the Forbidden City or the Great Wall, or even the Temple of Heaven.

The long, being a heraldic symbol of the monarchy, is more akin to the old fleur-de-lis in France, the chrysanthemum flag in Japan, the royal coat of arms of Britain, or the US President's flag and coat of arms.

UK:

Japan:

US:

If the above coats of arms are not regarded as national symbols or symbols of an entire people, but only as symbols of a single political leader or dynastic house, then I see no reason why the long should represent the whole of China. However, it seems that the long is useful for political cartoonists because it's an easy way to represent China, just like Uncle Sam for the US, John Bull for Britain, Marianne for France, the bear for Russia, and a sumo wrestler for Japan(!). The panda was once used more often as a symbol of China by cartoonists, but since the mid-1990s I think the dragon symbol has overtaken it, perhaps because the Chinese themselves have no great enthusiasm for the panda.

Hi Yun:
The graphics you posted are great and they do convey the concept, and you put them together in a very short time too. Nice job.

The points you make can not successfully be attacked.

An obstacle in my mind to a change from the dragon is that it is a change, and it may be a long and difficult struggle to replace a long established and recognized symbol with another that is neither. There is a Western saying that borders on almost being rude, it is "IF IT ISN'T BROKE, DON"T FIX IT " it sort means do not break it by fixing it. (I do not intend this quote to be a nasty retort)

On the other hand if a new symbol will better serve the national interest, perhaps it may merit consideration.

Best Wishes

Master Ghost Valley

[Yun]

Hi Master Ghost Valley,

Just five more images to make my point:



First Qing dynasty flag, used from 1862 to 1890.



Second Qing dynasty flag, used from 1890 to 1912.



The first ROC flag: "Used mainly in Shanghai and eastern parts of northern China until 1928. This flag was widely flown even before the founding of the Republic of China by Chinese on the eastern coast and garnered the greatest respect at the founding of the ROC. Stripes represent the five great races in China's history, according to Dr. Sun Yat-sen: red for Han Chinese, yellow to represent Manchus, blue as Mongols, white for both Huis and Uyghurs, and black for Tibetans. However, this is likely a convenient explanation after the fact; the flag most likely instead derived from the 5 colors of the Manchurian banner flags, hence its popularity even before the Chinese revolution."
source: http://www.nationmas...a/Flag-of-China





Flags used by Yuan Shikai's brief attempt to found a new imperial dynasty in 1916: "These variations on the initial flag of the Republic of China emphasize Han administration over other ethnicities in China." (same source as above)

Now, let me ask: if the dragon/long was a traditional icon of the Han people, then why did the ROC reject the dragon symbol that the Qing flag used, and instead choose the colour red to symbolize the Han? How easy would it have been for the revolutionaries to remove the dragon from the flag of China in 1912, if the Han people already recognized the dragon as their national or cultural symbol? Even when Yuan Shikai tried to make himself emperor, he didn't try and bring the dragon back.

Conclusion: The dragon/long as a symbol of China is what is known in historical studies as an Invention of Tradition ( https://tspace.libra...oltorf/6.3.html , http://dannyreviews...._Tradition.html ). Such inventions of tradition have happened in many other parts of the world when nationalism became a major influence on the common people and appropriately 'ancient' national symbols were needed for appealing to their sense of identity and pride. In the case of China, the invention of the 'dragon tradition' took place in the late 20th century among non-Chinese people and Overseas Chinese who were trying to find a symbol for China that was not Communist. Then it took off in Taiwan and mainland China because of Hou Dejian's popular song 龙的传人. After the decline of Communist ideology in the PRC, the amount of attention paid to 'dragon culture' has been rising constantly, despite the dragon having been condemned for most of the Communist period as a 'feudal superstition' and a symbol of the 'feudal' ruling classes.