128 replies to this topic

[Master Ghost Valley]

Hi Master Ghost Valley,

Just five more images to make my point:



First Qing dynasty flag, used from 1862 to 1890.



Second Qing dynasty flag, used from 1890 to 1912.



The first ROC flag: "Used mainly in Shanghai and eastern parts of northern China until 1928. This flag was widely flown even before the founding of the Republic of China by Chinese on the eastern coast and garnered the greatest respect at the founding of the ROC. Stripes represent the five great races in China's history, according to Dr. Sun Yat-sen: red for Han Chinese, yellow to represent Manchus, blue as Mongols, white for both Huis and Uyghurs, and black for Tibetans. However, this is likely a convenient explanation after the fact; the flag most likely instead derived from the 5 colors of the Manchurian banner flags, hence its popularity even before the Chinese revolution."
source: http://www.nationmas...a/Flag-of-China





Flags used by Yuan Shikai's brief attempt to found a new imperial dynasty in 1916: "These variations on the initial flag of the Republic of China emphasize Han administration over other ethnicities in China." (same source as above)

Now, let me ask: if the dragon/long was a traditional icon of the Han people, then why did the ROC reject the dragon symbol that the Qing flag used, and instead choose the colour red to symbolize the Han? How easy would it have been for the revolutionaries to remove the dragon from the flag of China in 1912, if the Han people already recognized the dragon as their national or cultural symbol? Even when Yuan Shikai tried to make himself emperor, he didn't try and bring the dragon back.

Conclusion: The dragon/long as a symbol of China is what is known in historical studies as an Invention of Tradition. Such inventions of tradition have happened in many other parts of the world when nationalism became a major influence on the common people and appropriately 'ancient' national symbols were needed for appealing to their sense of identity and pride.

Hi again Yun
The 5 flags are good and they drive home your point. I do not have an answer for you as to the why question. I do not have enough background on the political or social aspects that must have driven the dismissal of the dragon, but----I have exposure to graphics and design so If I had been asked to make a recommendation for a flag design, the advice would have been : the flag if it is to be used as a flag waving in the wind needs to be of a simple strong design that is easily recognized even when it is rippled an distorted by the wind. Complicated figures like a dragon or lettering are to small for easy recognition. What is needed is a bold distinct attention getter.

The Publication (Flags through the ages and across the world) is a large sized good source our office uses for reference on flags and examples of really affective color and designs related to flags and symbols. A paragraph from the publication "CHINA Finding new meanings and in ancient symbols" : And I quote :

"When one is isolated from other lands- or, as the Chinese saw it, when one lives in the Middle Country-----it is logical to assume that only the miscellaneous peoples of the far corners of the globe must identify themselves. Thus the dragon flag of imperial China although it incorporated an ancient symbol , was never intended to rally the Chinese people or even to represent them". As a national flag it was adopted reluctantly as an appeasement for outsiders ---those "barbarians" ---who having had flags of their own , insisted that the Chinese have one as well" There are a couple of more pages of pretty interesting information following the quote.

An aside ...I guess I could be classified as a modern day " one of those barbarians" and at times like this I wonder myself what am I doing making these kinds of comments here? The answer must be it is interesting and educational -- a couple of pretty good reasons for exchanges between different cultures all done in good spirit, in peace and without other motives.

Master Ghost Valley

[Ashura]

Now, let me ask: if the dragon/long was a traditional icon of the Han people, then why did the ROC reject the dragon symbol that the Qing flag used, and instead choose the colour red to symbolize the Han? How easy would it have been for the revolutionaries to remove the dragon from the flag of China in 1912, if the Han people already recognized the dragon as their national or cultural symbol? Even when Yuan Shikai tried to make himself emperor, he didn't try and bring the dragon back.

Dragon was the traditional symbol for the royal family(s), not the whole country. The totem of Huang Di was bear I believe. It was only the Xia Yu's tribe that had a dragon for its totem IIRC. It was not a good idea to promote the dragon/imperial image.

Han is red probably because Han dyansty was associated with the fire.

[urofpersia]

I personally do not think just because it is a modern invention, hencefore I will correct at every opportunity all uses of the Chinese Dragon in representative of the Chinese people.

Such representations and symbolism arises from time to time. What I prefer is to know the truth/facts of the matter. To me this is always a good thing. It is up to the Chinese people to decide how they want to be represented.

An important lesson I hope all will learn (as historians amateurs or professionals) is how easy it is to have a change in perception over a short period of time over a very large population. Think about how much we know of history is from written or transmitted records. Think about how easy it would have been to change or alter things in the past. Nothing is sacred, all should be open to question.

Edited by urofpersia, 20 December 2006 - 01:11 AM.

[Liang Jieming]

Actually, what bugs me more is our LACK of cultural symbolism. You see a cross... you know it represents Christians, Christian nations and loosely the west. You see a green crescent... you know it represents Islam and Islamic nations. What do we have? The yin-yang? Nope. The Dragon? Not quite. The Red Star? Uhh... No. The Ching-chong Chinaman? I certainly nope not. We need a unifying symbol, one that identifies us, and we identify with.

[Yun]

It was only the Xia Yu's tribe that had a dragon for its totem IIRC.

As I mentioned earlier, the only tribe said to have used a dragon totem was Fuxi's, and Fuxi is not even widely regarded as a historical figure.

We need a unifying symbol, one that identifies us, and we identify with.

I would propose that this unifying distinctive symbol should be the Chinese written script, which is the heritage of all Chinese. Why not choose a big 中 as the symbol of China? It is the first word in the Chinese names of both the ROC and PRC after all. Simple but unique and effective.

[naruwan]

As I mentioned earlier, the only tribe said to have used a dragon totem was Fuxi's, and Fuxi is not even widely regarded as a historical figure.
I would propose that this unifying distinctive symbol should be the Chinese written script, which is the heritage of all Chinese. Why not choose a big 中 as the symbol of China? It is the first word in the Chinese names of both the ROC and PRC after all. Simple but unique and effective.

no XD

i prefer Deinagkistrodon or the Eye of the ship, thank you.

[Yun]

Han is red probably because Han dyansty was associated with the fire.

More likely because red is an auspicious colour for the Han, for some reason. Actually it would be interesting to find out when red became auspicious. Originally it was just the colour representing the south and Fire.

[naruwan]

I wonder if it has to do with how difficult it is to get certain coloured dye.

For example, in nature it is pretty simple to get Blue and Red (At least in Taiwan it is), but bright yellow seems hard to come by.

[Yun]

i prefer Deinagkistrodon or the Eye of the ship, thank you.

http://en.wikipedia....ed_Viper_01.jpg

Deinagkistrodon Acutus: the Chinese pit viper.

I personally wouldn't mind having a snake on China's flag. After all, south Chinese drink quite a lot of snake's bile, so there must be something potent about snakes

[naruwan]

http://en.wikipedia....ed_Viper_01.jpg

Deinagkistrodon Acutus: the Chinese pit viper.

I personally wouldn't mind having a snake on China's flag. After all, south Chinese drink quite a lot of snake's bile, so there must be something potent about snakes

that is one beautiful snake.

I have personally ran into wild snakes on many occasions.

Twice in the mountains near El Paso Texas that I ran into Diamond Backs and turned around and ran down the hills.

Twice in Taiwan where I met the beautiful Deinagkistrodon myself.

Though...... for such a powerful snake, it seemed a lot more scared of us humans =_=

Twice it was in my direct path and upon seeing my approach it shoots into the trees like a demon's coming. The first time it retreated on this tree which i took a couple of pictures of. The second time I think it missed the target and rolled down the cliff.........

Edited by naruwan, 20 December 2006 - 04:48 AM.

[heijingling]

Actually, what bugs me more is our LACK of cultural symbolism. You see a cross... you know it represents Christians, Christian nations and loosely the west. You see a green crescent... you know it represents Islam and Islamic nations. What do we have? The yin-yang? Nope. The Dragon? Not quite. The Red Star? Uhh... No. The Ching-chong Chinaman? I certainly nope not. We need a unifying symbol, one that identifies us, and we identify with.

Do you mean that China needs a logo , to be more economically & world-politically efficient ?

IMHO , this "dragon affair" started with the perception a chinese scholar has of the perception of some westerners have about China , & is very symptomatic of an identity crisis that many Chinese have now.
(They are not the only ones to have an identity crisis, i must say)

[Liang Jieming]

As I mentioned earlier, the only tribe said to have used a dragon totem was Fuxi's, and Fuxi is not even widely regarded as a historical figure.
I would propose that this unifying distinctive symbol should be the Chinese written script, which is the heritage of all Chinese. Why not choose a big 中 as the symbol of China? It is the first word in the Chinese names of both the ROC and PRC after all. Simple but unique and effective.

Actually, this is pretty good. It's distinctive. It's easy to remember. It's easy to reproduce. It's non-partisan. It's non-religious. It's symbolism goes back at least 2000 years. It represents the one thing that has kept Chinese unified, that is the written script. And it's something that we already understand and need not be taught.

[Mok]

Hmm, symbol? Ok, so I'm partial, but a black tiger on a red background would look pretty cool.

[qrasy]

Instead it was the symbol of the emperor (and arguably, even the Qing state flag was meant to represent the imperial dynasty rather than the people).

so when did people started playing "Dragon" and "Lion" every new Chinese year?

[Yun]

舞龍的歷史非常悠久，據考證早在兩千多年前，民俗活動中就有舞龍的項目。

最早是用來求雨的，那時人們以為龍能興雲佈雨，每逢天旱時，便舞龍以祈雨。

據說當時還有春舞青龍，夏舞赤龍．秋舞白龍，冬舞黑龍等等規矩。後來舞龍的活動代代相傅，不僅限於祈雨，其它活動也有舞龍的習慣，今天已成了一種娛樂活動了。

from http://www.socialwor...gon/history.htm

According to this online source, the dragon dance was originally used to pray for rain, with different colours of dragons used for different seasons, according to the Five Phases cycle (blue for spring, red for summer, white for autumn, black for winter). This was because dragons were believed to control the rain. It only gradually became a practice identified solely with the New Year.

However, I don't know what sources this is based on.

As for the lion dance, we have a thread on it somewhere on CHF. It probably started only in the Tang dynasty.