128 replies to this topic

[Centaur]

How about Zheng Banqiao's Bamboos?

Edited by Centaur, 26 December 2006 - 09:38 PM.

[Kimchee]

Hmmm... I guess this thread evolved into a discussion of what a new flag for China should be? I like the idea that someone brought up about using Chinese calligraphy. Look at the national flag of Saudi Arabia. (FYI it contains the "shahada" or profession of faith: "There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Prophet." )

Perhaps something similar with words to inspire all Chinese. This: 中, is one of the most recognizable images of China for even a novice like me. This was the first Chinese word I ever learned... 中国.


Kimchee

[Richard Lim]

"Now, let me ask: if the dragon/long was a traditional icon of the Han people, then why did the ROC reject the dragon symbol that the Qing flag used, and instead choose the colour red to symbolize the Han? How easy would it have been for the revolutionaries to remove the dragon from the flag of China in 1912, if the Han people already recognized the dragon as their national or cultural symbol? Even when Yuan Shikai tried to make himself emperor, he didn't try and bring the dragon back."



This begs the question of to what extent was the dragon throught to have been primarily an imperial symbol as opposed to a cultural symbol of the Han people generally?

[Yun]

to what extent was the dragon throught to have been primarily an imperial symbol

Good question! As far as I can tell, the foundation of the dragon being an imperial symbol in ancient Chinese political thought is the Yijing. In the interpretations for the first Yijing hexagram (Qian), the dragon is used to symbolize the ruler (literally 'great man'). Perhaps LYY or Lin Duanwen can shed more light on this.

[Thach]

Dear Friend,

I have one question: Why I don't the picture or statue of big dragon on the roof of the building in the Forbidden city or the Tian Dan Temple of Heaven, while I saw many in the imperial city of Hue, in Vietnam? It seems to me that the Qing and Ming dynasties, they did not treasure much the symbol of the dragon. At Taihe dian, the dragon is on the floor, on the staircase and not on the roof.

Best, Thach

[Rong Qin Wang]

For all those who know chinese culture, "Dragon" (also known as Long 龙" in chinese) has been the traditional icon (totem) in chinese culture. Not only was it an auspicious creature in chinese culture, it was also a representation of emperor in ancient times.

However, recently, there was actually a great debate in mainland China about the cultural icon of "Dragon". Some people commented that China should change this "Dragon" name to a chinese name "Loong". The reason is partly due to the fact that in western culture, "dragon" was seen to be an evil monster/creature, and for that reason, "Dragon" would bring a bad image to chinese. Dragon seems to be perceived as somewhat evil in western christianity.

I'm not sure what you think about this. But I personally think "Dragon" is traditonal cultural icon for the chinese and one should not just simply change this tradition b'cos of western cultural perception. I think, the chinese traditional icon of dragon should be established as a worldwide cultural brand, rather than being shrunk by western influence.

[Note: There is a chinese article report that "slam" the use of dragon as a cultural icon for the chinese at http://gb.cri.cn/908...165@1333416.htm]

What do you think of this? Do you agree that 'dragon" should no longer be the cultural icon for chinese?

Zunjing de General Zhaoyun,

Well, “dragon” has always been a representation of the Chinese Emperors and the Imperial family; however, since imperial China does not exist anymore, I am not so sure if the dragon can still serve as a cultural icon of China or not. At least, I would think people would have some opposing arguments to this claim. This is the only reason I can think of as to why there would be a problem with using the dragon as a cultural icon for China .

Of course, Westerners are dominating everything right now; however, this does not give them any right to tell the Asians what they should do culturally! Who cares what the Westerners think! I certainly don’t! We are talking about the cultural icon for China here, so Westerners should just butt out and graciously accept the Chinese’s wishes! I mean this would be the most accurate way to promote cultural identity.

Even if the Westerners decide to “ban” the usage of dragon as a Chinese cultural icon, they still cannot change what I think as the dragon will always remain the most holy mythological creature serving as China ’s cultural icon in my heart!

On the other hand, let’s invent some stupid stories about how the bald eagle was the most evil animal, and then try to convince the US to discard this animal as its national symbol just because we don’t think very highly of the eagle. Does not this sound stupid? However, this is exactly what the Westerners are trying to do.

[thirdgumi]

Even if the Westerners decide to “ban” the usage of dragon as a Chinese cultural icon, they still cannot change what I think as the dragon will always remain the most holy mythological creature serving as China ’s cultural icon in my heart!

Woo, they are trying to ban it? Why is that?

[kaiselin]

Zunjing de General Zhaoyun,

Well, “dragon” has always been a representation of the Chinese Emperors and the Imperial family; however, since imperial China does not exist anymore, I am not so sure if the dragon can still serve as a cultural icon of China or not. At least, I would think people would have some opposing arguments to this claim. This is the only reason I can think of as to why there would be a problem with using the dragon as a cultural icon for China .

Of course, Westerners are dominating everything right now; however, this does not give them any right to tell the Asians what they should do culturally! Who cares what the Westerners think! I certainly don’t! We are talking about the cultural icon for China here, so Westerners should just butt out and graciously accept the Chinese’s wishes! I mean this would be the most accurate way to promote cultural identity.

Even if the Westerners decide to “ban” the usage of dragon as a Chinese cultural icon, they still cannot change what I think as the dragon will always remain the most holy mythological creature serving as China ’s cultural icon in my heart!

Whoa there, That's a very broad statement that the west is trying to change the Chinese icon of the Dragon.
This is not a subject that I have ever heard other than on this forum ,and I don't think that even here that that was the gist of the thread.
In fact the comments I have read on the forum about a few branches of zealous fundamental evangelistic Christians that think the Dragon/Long is evil and that you should not even speak the word is ludicris . That sort of thinking upsets me.It is their right to hold that belief if they want, but I certainly do not. Those few christian do not constitute every Christian, nor do they speak for all the none Christians in America. or the rest of the west.

On the other hand, let’s invent some stupid stories about how the bald eagle was the most evil animal, and then try to convince the US to discard this animal as its national symbol just because we don’t think very highly of the eagle. Does not this sound stupid?

Your analogy of the Eagle is very astute, and can actually be used to describe exactly what the Church has done with every foreign custom and belief system that did not fit into its agenda since it began. If the church could not change a 'pagan" belief to conform, it became evil.
( as a side note there was a disagreement about the choice of the Eagle as Americas symbol, There were those that thought it should be the Turkey, which is a native north american bird instead of a bird that is just a scavenger, like the buzzard, but all dressed up)

However, this is exactly what the Westerners are trying to do.

Those same few people are in intolerant of everything that does not fit into their particular idea of what is correct. The majority of the west is tired of a small sub set of christianity shoving their ideas down our throats. Please let me asure you this is not what the west is trying to do.

(I'm sure I have offended some of you, sorry , my apologies. I will fight for your right to believe in what you do. I will leave you alone to believe anything you wish to believe in as long as I too am given that same respect. )( hmmm, much like a dragon sleeping is his cave)

Edited by kaiselin, 13 March 2007 - 11:19 AM.

[bayonet]

We need a unifying symbol, one that identifies us, and we identify with.

what about panda?

[Yun]

Let me clarify that no one in the 'West' has ever suggested that China should stop using the dragon/long as a symbol. In fact, I would argue that the 'West' is partly responsible for the rise of the dragon as a symbol of China in the 20th century (see my earlier posts), and continues to promote this usage by identifying China with dragons in popular culture.

The only people who are currently rejecting the use of the dragon as a symbol of the Chinese are certain (large) groups of Chinese Christians both in outside China, and they do so for two possible reasons:

1) because they see the dragon as an object of worship in ancient Chinese religion
2) because they believe dragons of any kind are a representation of the devil

Note that they are not campaigning in any way for the Chinese government to ban the use of the dragon; they are merely making a personal choice not to display images of dragons in their homes or workplaces.

Note also that I know several Chinese people who hold firmly to the second reason, whereas I personally hold to the first reason in not using the dragon symbol.

So please do not misunderstand and add "attempting to take away China's cultural icon" to the long list of sins the 'West' is being routinely blamed for in Asian rhetoric

[Yun]

what about panda?

I would invite you to find any evidence at all that the panda had any prominent place in Chinese mythology or popular culture before the 20th century. The use of the cute, cuddly panda as a symbol of China was purely a product of the 'panda diplomacy' between the PRC and the US in the late 20th century. The Chinese themselves are now quite clearly dropping the panda and choosing the more impressive dragon.

[Mok]

Like Yun, I am a Chinese Christian but unlike him, I personally see the dragon as a symbol of China's past and as such, it doesn't go against my convictions to have it displayed in my workplace, etc. In fact, my Staff namecard has the dragon motif.

[Mok]

what about panda?

Gosh! I seriously hope you don't mean that.

[naruwan]

Gosh! I seriously hope you don't mean that.

well, some say 貔貅 recorded in Shi Ji is the Panda. Also in 山海經 San Hai Jing it's called 貘. These animals are said to eat iron, look like bears but smaller, white and black in colour.

and they were considered as vicious as tigers.

[kaiselin]

what about panda?

The panda seems to be so over looked .
It is not one of the main Zodiac animals.
I have found no myth revolved around the panda, and have wondered why.
(I would be interested in reading about any stories if anyone knows of any)

Pro:The panda is so unique and instantly recognizable as Chinese.
There are no negative associations with 'evil myths of western dragons'.

Negative:The panda is always portrayed as sweet and cuddly.
It would be like choosing a little bunny or kitten to represent a major world power.
Not nearly as awe inspiring as the Dragon/ Long.