73 replies to this topic

[Andy Lau]

Yes, I know all han chinese originated from central plains, which is the birth place of the han ethnicity. I was just talking about taishanese just to counter Yummyakitori's argument.

Which Zhuang words did Cantonese borrow just out of curiosity?

I am almost sure Taishanese have more Han blood than other southern chinese because we migrated from central plains to guangdong and southern china much later than other groups, except hakka. You can see from facial features and vocabulary, which is similar to hakka (who is that last major group to migrate south from central plains).

Back to teochew topic, I find that some minnan people look like Japanese. Is this due to the frequent interactions and intermarriage with Japanese pirates? Because I have heard of Japanese pirates sailing along the fujian coast frequently.

Edited by Andy Lau, 03 June 2012 - 12:46 AM.

[mohistManiac]

I think many southern Chinese people confuse themselves in the matter of identity because they are mentally bonded to popular culture. Due to the prevalence of capitalism within the south this isn't at all unusual. They simply end up wanting to be more "Han" looking due to the meteoric rise of some popular star to which they automatically associate with ancient "Han" prestige. For those that have yet to realize it, the prestige of Chinese culture is largely fabricated on basis of the existence of the sinocentric states of the past, which had for a certain time period became responsible for the management of great power within the region. What is largely responsibly for this attraction to ancient prestige and power are those particular concepts in Chinese culture for the appraisal of great things in its past such as ancestor worship, long lasting civilization, an appeal to dynastic cycles, valuing tradition and vintage, etc. What justified these particular concepts was in fact the great instability within the region which happened to witness many eventful takeovers by people newly arriving. The bulk of Chinese prestige is rather forcibly associated with those sinocentric states due to the historical nature of the Chinese mind.

[xng]

Which Zhuang words did Cantonese borrow just out of curiosity?

ly.

According to 廣州話方言詞典 (p.322) 脌 [nin1] and 搣 [mit1] have their origin from the old Tai languages because words of similar sound and meaning can still be founded in present-day minority languages such as Zhuang, Li, Buyi, etc. As regards 氹 [tam5], Zhan Bohui 詹伯慧 lists it (in his “An Outline of Yue Dialects in Guangdong 廣東粵方言概要 p.111) among the many Cantonese words of old Tai origin.

Edited by xng, 03 June 2012 - 04:11 PM.

[Andy Lau]

I think many southern Chinese people confuse themselves in the matter of identity because they are mentally bonded to popular culture. Due to the prevalence of capitalism within the south this isn't at all unusual.

Unfortunately, we Taishanese don't have Taishanese popular culture to look up to =(

But genetically and historically, no Han Chinese is different from each other. There are many genetic studies, even the ones you can find on any topics on CHF posted by members, that todays Han Chinese have more in common genetically compared to other neighbouring countries ie Korean, Vietnamese, Japanese. For example, a Teochew is genetically more in common with a Shandong person, than a Korean. For sure there were inter-mixes in Northerrn China with Non-Han ethnic groups such as Mongols, Manchu, DongYi, Turks, and other Ethnic Minorities, but they still have a good portion of Han Blood - as one real life example.

Taishanese, we don't have pop culture to look up to, but we have our own local culture since we're mostly rural people. Linguistically, we preserve well Middle Chinese which is the Chinese language spoken in the Central Plains during the Tang, Song and Sui Dynasty periods. ie Ni = You, Nyin = Person, Hee = Air, Gim = Gold, Nam = South, Pak = North, Fi Gi = Air Plane, Yit = One and so on. It's interesting how many famous and good looking Hong Kong Stars are Taishanese ie Andy Lau, Chow Yun Fat, Shawn Yue (余文樂), Donnie Yen (甄子丹), and many more. Even many Shanghai Stars during the Kuomintang-Era rule in the early 1900s are Taishanese ie Hu Die (胡蝶) Empress of Chinese Cinema and Chen Yunchang. You can see a huge list here: http://en.wikipedia....a_and_Hong_Kong

Here are some pics and videos of regular Taishanese people:

NBA Yao Ming # 2 "Yi Jianlian" (易建联) who's from Heshan, Guangdong (Taishan Area) and he's 7ft tall.












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The south is more captialism, because we have the smarts and are more diligent, which is why many Scientists come from Jiangnan region and alot of big firms are found in Guangdong and Zhejiang.

In the North, they have the man power, which is why many are factory workers and miners.

Edited by Andy Lau, 05 June 2012 - 10:59 AM.

[mohistManiac]

You are not listening. I didn't focus on Taishanese. I simply noted that the southern China was historically more consumption driven although things could rapidly change. Just 2 centuries ago the north was the stronghold of the emperor who set no value on things "strange and ingenious". Now, 5 star hotels spring up in Beijing with names like Shangri La Hotel meaning western preferences are increasingly used as pattern filters for beauty within the eastern system. Why do they not make light of the newcomers and put their own visions and native preferences into the critical position of being more beautiful and pure and so on and so forth? It's all due to the reasoning of prestige through consumption. Mainlanders think western imports are all the rage and even their architecture is built to western ideals. The exterior design of fantastic traditional Chinese wooden architecture is replaced by western notions of the European facade. In addition southerners in general think of Chinese northerners as descendants of emperors and royals due to all the ancient dramas glorifying ancient Chinese culture and have therefore obtained the facade of exuding "more Han" power. What do the westerners think as they keep buying Chinese made goods? That China will save the world of capitalism. Like I said, a confusion of identities.

[Andy Lau]

I didn't say that you focused on Taishanese, I was using Taishanese as an example of a southern chinese group.

As a southern chinese, my grands parents always told me that we identified ourself as pure Chinese and that northerners are northern region people (Bak Fong Nyin). They said some capitals of dynasties were in the north and some were in the south. I explained to them what you told me "that northerners were descendants of emperors or royals" and they never heard of this before. All they know is that some people in xinhui, guangdong(Taishan area) are descended from royals of the Song dynasty =/



There is even a documentary about it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVVaoXO2VoI

Edited by Andy Lau, 05 June 2012 - 11:42 AM.

[mohistManiac]

I didn't say that you focused on Taishanese, I was using Taishanese as an example of a southern chinese group.

How does that change anything? You can even use Taishanese as an example of a northern chinese group. Taishanese do not fuel the movement of the world just as they don't create their own popular culture to look up to. What they have are talented individuals which are subsumed into a culture of popular consumption for people in China. However, comparatively speaking, at the moment, it is the southern parts which have more experience with aggressive consumerism for fashion and prestige goods. These things are coupled with the idea that the north, being historically powerful and overrun with persons of higher status such as officials, provide the cultural background for which the southern folk in China had wished to emulate. So they say things like such and such an actor have some ancestry to import prestige into his status. It is not enough that actors and actresses in the south are just entertainers but they also have northern ancestry in order to create higher weighting to their artificial personas. So the important thing is not whether or not your grandparents believe what they say. The important thing is how they had arrived at this conclusion. They must have heard someone who heard from someone who heard from someone etc.

Hello everyone. I am a South Korean. I was wondering about the general and present relationship between the Chinese (mainlanders) and Koreans? Of course we occasionally hear the tense relation between Chinese-Japanese and Korean-Japanese...but I was curious to this?

As a Korean...I like Chinese a lot. Recently, I've taken an enormous dive into Chinese culture and history...and read quite a few informative books on Chinese history (i.e. Joseph Needham). It seems we get along quite well in the West...but I was aiming more towards Chinese mainlanders...like the Han...and South/North Koreans...
Of course there are a few bigots on either side who are ignorant.....but aside from that?

And it's important that I'm asking specifically towards Chinese mainlanders...and not Taiwanese or Singaporeans...so are we part of the Northeast Asian elite? Or the Sinosphere civilization? I recall some general of the Tang Dynasty...and that Hallyu started in China.

Your opinions and thoughts?

The above was stripped from another topic but I placed it here to show the same thing. What we know is that South Koreans also have a highly advanced consumer culture. Extending this point, we also know news media frequently broadcasts political relations between China and North Korea. Judging this, we can already see that there would be intense strain placed on South Koreans to reconcile their international relationship with China. If South Koreans are also too caught up with ancient veneration practices (Confucianism and tribute culture) which recognize Chinese dynastic history as something which supersedes the history of its neighbors, then in a case similar to southern China, Koreans will also oblige themselves to symbolically stay in a state of cultural infancy while prestige is allocated to central China. Therefore the justification for southern Korea's current state of being is that even though they have modernized, their status remains lower to the inventors of their culture. The question which remains in such minds would be just how closely related are the lower status people to the higher status people. It is basically the same question posed by the topic here.

Edited by mohistManiac, 05 June 2012 - 11:37 AM.

[mrclub]

From Teochew nang, we came off topic until become Taishanese people.

I think the admin or moderators should change the title of this thread already.

Sorry if I contributed nothing in my this reply.

Edited by mrclub, 06 June 2012 - 02:43 AM.

[Andy Lau]

To MohistManiac: There are records from many family clans in Guangdong Province (ie Chaozhou, Taishan, Panyu, Guangzhou etc..) where their previous generations come from. It's not just "heard someone who heard from someone..", there are family clan village records, academic research and historical writings about people migrating south from the north.

I'm sorry MohistManiac, you just have to face the true fact and stop arguing; that han chinese, whether from North or South, are genetically more similar to each other than neighbouring ethnic groups ie Mongol, Korean, Vietnamese, Japanese.

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I agree with mrclub.

I was wondering, if teochew and hokkien ever did trade with Japanese pirates in the past (Qing and Ming Dynasty period) ? Because i have some friends who are hokkien and teochew and some of them look Japanese 0.o

[mohistManiac]

To MohistManiac: There are records from many family clans in Guangdong Province (ie Chaozhou, Taishan, Panyu, Guangzhou etc..) where their previous generations come from. It's not just "heard someone who heard from someone..", there are family clan village records, academic research and historical writings about people migrating south from the north.

I'm sorry MohistManiac, you just have to face the true fact and stop arguing; that han chinese, whether from North or South, are genetically more similar to each other than neighbouring ethnic groups ie Mongol, Korean, Vietnamese, Japanese.

=======

I agree with mrclub.

I was wondering, if teochew and hokkien ever did trade with Japanese pirates in the past (Qing and Ming Dynasty period) ? Because i have some friends who are hokkien and teochew and some of them look Japanese 0.o

I don't think it was my intention to generalize about anything. I'm not going to eat my own words and deny saying something like Asians are obviously related to each other. Obviously there is the alternative route of taking genetic tests to finally prove once and for all whether people are what they say they are but I don't think that was quite my point nor can anyone be forced to take such test. The whole point of the arguments were to justify what many southern Chinese end up socially doing as northern bond promotion boosts their image in a world which increasingly aggrandizes the power of Beijing, something you point out in your other post.

Edited by mohistManiac, 06 July 2012 - 07:36 AM.

[Andy Lau]

You're quote "These things are coupled with the idea that the north, being historically powerful and overrun with persons of higher status such as officials, provide the cultural background for which the southern folk in China had wished to emulate. So they say things like such and such an actor have some ancestry to import prestige into his status"

Unfortunately, I don't think the Taiwan and Hong Kong Movie Industry (Southern Folk) would chose an actor based on ancestry (coming from the north), but based on talent and the good looks - just like hollywood.

Edited by Andy Lau, 07 July 2012 - 12:49 PM.

[mohistManiac]

You're quote "These things are coupled with the idea that the north, being historically powerful and overrun with persons of higher status such as officials, provide the cultural background for which the southern folk in China had wished to emulate. So they say things like such and such an actor have some ancestry to import prestige into his status"

Unfortunately, I don't think the Taiwan and Hong Kong Movie Industry (Southern Folk) would chose an actor based on ancestry (coming from the north), but based on talent and the good looks - just like hollywood.

I hear it all the time. Someone would be given hype simply because his or her grandmother came from way up north or had connections in the government etc. To make it big in hollywood you have to have something else nobody else has, and in the parts of China occupied by southern folk it is no different.

[Andy Lau]

In fact, most of the famous and good looking actors in hong Kong have Taishanese ancestry, such as Andy lau, Donnie Yen, chow yun fat, tony leung, Shawn Yue and so on. Even the Empress of Chinese Cinema, a Shanghainese Actress from the 1940s, Hu Die (胡蝶) is of Taishanese ancestry. Therefore your theory is false my friend >.<

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I do alot of personal study on chinese sociology and the mentality that you brought up, " Someone would be given hype simply because his or her grandmother came from way up north or had connections in the government," is common between central vs. northern China;

Example #1:

A Shanghainese friend of mine told me that people from Jiangbei would think because they are from the north and near Shandong - birth of confucius - that they are better than their brothers in Jiangnan (Southern Jiangsu, Anhui, Shanghai and Zhejiang).

While Shanghainese view Jiangbei people as not intelligent and Dongbei people as easily to manipulate.

Example #2:

A hubei high school friend of mine told me that at his university he hates one of his classmates because he thinks he is better than him because he is from Dongbei region and his parents work for the CCP government.


In Southern China, this mentality does not exist as they are more commercial oriented and most are employers or middle class employees. For example, people in Hong Kong only care about Shopping, food and Entertainment. Even the CCP government complains that Hong Kongers are not patriotic (love the motherland) enough and are trying to put gov't ads to spruce up patriotism.

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In addition, even though all southern chinese, including Taishanese, have northern ancestry from way back, hong Kong actors were not chosen because "their grandmother had northern ancestry or had connection with the government," but because they were average/good looking and/or had a talent. Even most of the famous actors and actresses in Taiwan are local hokkien or hakka taiwanese. So, when people analyze our arguments, they will know who is right ^^”

So I think I will stop here, because the topic here is supposed to be about teochew.

Edited by Andy Lau, 07 July 2012 - 12:44 PM.

[mohistManiac]

In fact, most of the famous and good looking actors in hong Kong have Taishanese ancestry, such as Andy lau, Donnie Yen, chow yun fat, tony leung, Shawn Yue and so on. Even the Empress of Chinese Cinema, a Shanghainese Actress from the 1940s, Hu Die (胡蝶) is of Taishanese ancestry. Therefore your theory is false my friend >.<

===========================================================


I do alot of personal study on chinese sociology and the mentality that you brought up, " Someone would be given hype simply because his or her grandmother came from way up north or had connections in the government," is common between central vs. northern China;

Example #1:

A Shanghainese friend of mine told me that people from Jiangbei would think because they are from the north and near Shandong - birth of confucius - that they are better than their brothers in Jiangnan (Southern Jiangsu, Anhui, Shanghai and Zhejiang).

While Shanghainese view Jiangbei people as not intelligent and Dongbei people as easily to manipulate.

Example #2:

A hubei high school friend of mine told me that at his university he hates one of his classmates because he thinks he is better than him because he is from Dongbei region and his parents work for the CCP government.


In Southern China, this mentality does not exist as they are more commercial oriented and most are employers or middle class employees. For example, people in Hong Kong only care about Shopping, food and Entertainment. Even the CCP government complains that Hong Kongers are not patriotic (love the motherland) enough and are trying to put gov't ads to spruce up patriotism.

You just said Taishan people have northern ancestry though so how does this conflict with what I said. Famous and good looking is subjective but I suspect the trend is that you would be more highly successful in the television and movies industry if you have more connections and bonds with the north. Look how famous Jet Li was and Zhang Ziyi and they weren't even that good looking and got promoted all over in the south including Taiwan. It is especially the people with names starting with the Z and Zh phonetics that I find most famous now.