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#31 foldup_gryphon

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Posted 12 September 2005 - 12:16 AM

^Taishan did not come into existence until the late Ming Dynasty.  Originally, it was part of Xinhui county.

Also, the Cantonese people there did not really take form until the later part of the Tang Dynasty and early part of the Song.  Before that, people there were sparsely settled and most likely still ethnically 100% YUE.  The Qin and Han Dynasty did not really settle people there except for convicts and exiles.

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Qin General Zhao Tau and Qin General Meng Tien were not Yue 越, and the army that they led to conquered Luliang was not Yue 越. Zhao Tau and his army that settle in Nanhai were not Yue 越. There is nothing Yue 越 about historical Nanhai apart being a province of Nan Yue where Zhao Tau and his army had their capital there. The only historical evidence available is the Bai Yue 百越 was settled and garrisoned in Guilin and Xiang that now made up Guangxi. There is where the Bai Yue 百越 and their descendants have left their marks.

I have contemporaneous historical evidence to back up my exposition. However, there are no historical evidence that the Bai Yue 百越 had settle in Nanhai.

Edited by foldup_gryphon, 12 September 2005 - 01:57 AM.


#32 kaixin

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Posted 12 September 2005 - 12:33 AM

^I don't know about Chaozhou people, but the bulk of Cantonese people's ancestors did not really start to populated Guangdong until the 980-1080 ADs. Look at my other thread and the census. Most Cantonese trace their migrations via Nanxiong in northern Guangdong during the Tang and Song.

#33 qrasy

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Posted 12 September 2005 - 01:14 AM

A number of linguists have classified Chiu Chao language as a part of the Min languages and they also maintain a strong view that Chiu Chao was historically part of Fujian and not Guangdong.

Why bother with territorial difference? Language can spread across boundary of provinces.

These evidences contradict the theory that Chiu Chao people were originally from Zhao State of the warring state period led by Qin General Zhao Tau who is also of Zhao State originally.

Zhao Tuo was born in somewhere (Zhen Ding?) that was in today's Hebei. He can move so far South, why can't people follow him?

As there are no evidence put forward to counter these facts, I have NO ground to sustain the point that Qin General Zhao Tau and the Chiu Chao people are from the Zhao State. This is because the Zhao State and its people speak a Zhou Dynasty language which is a north china language. The Min on the other is a south China language.

By the way "North China language" does not make sense in that ancient age. Zhou might be in North but language was still very archaic. Same as Tang that still have stop endings.

I have contemporaneous historical evidence to back up my exposition. However, there are no historical evidence that the Bai Yue 百越 had settle in Nanhai.

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I've heard the past ethnic Li/Lao 俚/佬(僚?) branch of BaiYue settled in HaiNan.

Edited by qrasy, 12 September 2005 - 01:15 AM.

The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie—deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - JFK


#34 kaixin

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Posted 12 September 2005 - 01:44 AM

^Hainan today is mainly inhabited by Chiuchou people who moved there during the Qing. but, there are also Cantonese, Hakka and "Yue" minorities as well. I think it will become the "Hawaii" of China someday.

#35 foldup_gryphon

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Posted 12 September 2005 - 01:54 AM

I believe Medieval Gan dialect speakers of the Song Dynasty could have most likely past through the Ganzhou 赣洲 Nanxiong 南雄 corridor to Guangdong. However ancient Man 蛮 people went through Changsha to Guilin route as did the Chu 楚 settlers/refugees to establish themselves in Guangxi first before moving on to Guangdong. The Bai Yue 百越 and Min went through a total opposite route using either or both Meizhou 梅州 and Chaozhou 潮洲.

There is no such thing as census of ancient population as the earliest one is the doomsday book of 12 Century Christian Era. People who use census of ancient population before that date are misleading people.

Edited by foldup_gryphon, 12 September 2005 - 02:03 AM.


#36 qrasy

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Posted 12 September 2005 - 07:35 AM

I believe Medieval Gan dialect speakers of the Song Dynasty could have most likely past through the Ganzhou 赣洲 Nanxiong 南雄 corridor to Guangdong. However ancient Man 蛮 people went through Changsha to Guilin route as did the Chu 楚 settlers/refugees to establish themselves in Guangxi first before moving on to Guangdong. The Bai Yue 百越 and Min went through a total opposite route using either or both Meizhou 梅州 and Chaozhou 潮洲.

Do you know the approximate age (i.e. what dynasty/ies) the movements took place?

There is no such thing as census of ancient population as the earliest one is the doomsday book of 12 Century Christian Era. People who use census of ancient population before that date are misleading people.

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I believe there were some census but it did not count how many persons there were, but rather households. That's also how we know the ancient army's number.

The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie—deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - JFK


#37 foldup_gryphon

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Posted 13 September 2005 - 05:19 AM

Do you know the approximate age (i.e. what dynasty/ies) the movements took place?

I believe there were some census but it did not count how many persons there were, but rather households. That's also how we know the ancient army's number.

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First off I have to distinguish the ‘southern Man’ from the ‘northern Man’. It is the ‘southern Man’ who formed the Luliang Kingdom while it is the ‘northern Man’ who formed the Chu State. The ‘southern Man’ is the proto type Yue 粤. The ‘southern Man’ and ‘northern Man’ could have belonged to the same singular political unity a number of times such as during the Xia and Shang dynasties. However by the Western Zhou period the Man political cohesiveness reflected the political disunity and turmoil that followed the collapse of the Shang. I would say the ‘southern Man’ migrated south during the formation of the Western Zhou Dynasty at the end of the 2nd Millennium. They took the Changsha to Guilin route. The process of consolidation between the ‘southern Man’ and the Austro-Asiatic Mon civilization appeared to be less one sided as attested by the strong enduring influence of the Austro-Asiatic culture on the Luliang Kingdom and Chu State. However as the Mon had predominate the Austronesian before, this time the proto type Yue 粤 predominate the Austro-Asiatic Mon. The end result is the largely Sinitic Luliang Kingdom. During the Spring and Autumn period a large number of Chu settlers migrated south to present day Guangxi also by way of Changsha to Guilin. But the end of the Warring States period Chu people going south to Luliang was entirely refugees.

With the successful Qin conquest of Luliang which witness a large number of Qin resettlement programs, the first of which is the establishment of the proto type Taishan community by the Song or Shang 商 mercenaries who had formed a part of the Qin army led by Qin General Meng Tien and Qin General Zhao Tau. Next the BaiYue 百越 were commissioned to garrison Guilin and Xiang soon after 214 Before Christian Era. The BaiYue 百越 most likely started from present day Fujian by way of present day Meizhou crossing present day northern Guangdong to get to present day Guangxi.

As strongly advocated by its supporters, Song people migrated through Ganzhou 赣洲 Nanxiong 南雄 corridor to reach Guangdong during the Song Dynasty period. However I believe earlier migrations some of which is stated above and later migrations have the same importance in the formation of Guangdong and Guangxi.

No census has been taken prior to the Doomsday Book of 12 Century Christian Era.

Edited by foldup_gryphon, 13 September 2005 - 12:51 PM.


#38 qrasy

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Posted 13 September 2005 - 05:39 AM

Any references to those Mans' story?

Some says that Chu was Austroasiatic, Shang was Austronesian but I don't know how they could say this.

There were census of army, probably there also were for population, but the units might be households.
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=7080
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=5638

Edited by qrasy, 13 September 2005 - 05:46 AM.

The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie—deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - JFK


#39 foldup_gryphon

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Posted 16 September 2005 - 01:02 AM

Any references to those Mans' story?

Some says that Chu was Austroasiatic, Shang was Austronesian but I don't know how they could say this.

There were census of army, probably there also were for population, but the units might be households.
<span style='color:white'>http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=7080</span>
<span style='color:white'>http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=5638</span>

The reference book or possibly books you requested I am afraid is not now available to me as there are in England. That is where I have acquired the information. They do go into detail about Southern China. The reference book I have with me at the moment is quite substantial ‘The Cambridge History Of Ancient China’ but unfortunately it goes into detail focus of North China mainly. The information it has on the Man though support my exposition to a certain extent is vague enough to confuse the point I am trying to make.

The Cambridge book does make quite clear that the Chu State is Man ethnically both in population and in ruling nobility but nevertheless the Chu ruling clan does have royal Zhou confirmation of investiture. This state was initially of modest size in the upper reaches of the Han River in Shaanxi just south of Wei River Valley. Such a close proximity to the Western Zhou Royal Domain would confirm my designation of the Chu State as ‘northern Man’. It geographical far north position would make the Chu State extremely unlikely to be Austro-Asiatic. My ‘southern Man’ are the people occupying Mid Yangtze and this civilization is what most documents described when their write about Man. This Mid Yangtze Man culture is what people most linked to Austro-Asiatic and to which I disagree with.

Lastly no census was ever taken on the Austronesian, nor was there ever a census taken on the Austro-Asiatic. In addition no census was ever taken on the Man. Your references of different armies' sizes do not constitute census.

Edited by foldup_gryphon, 16 September 2005 - 04:12 AM.


#40 kaixin

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Posted 16 September 2005 - 05:05 AM

^I'd be kinda skeptical about Western sources and authors on Chinese history. A lot of them have agendas. Some of them even try to claim that Tang Dynasty founders were not ethnically Chinese, when it was clear they had Chinese patrilineal descent. They want to "de-Sinicize" Chinese history as much as possible and make us look effeminated. Be careful.

#41 foldup_gryphon

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 05:59 AM

Master Lu advanced and addressed Zhao Tuo. “You are a Chinese, and your forefathers and kin lie buried in Zhending in the land of Zhao…

Records of the Grand Historian: Han Dynasty I, Revised Edition, Sima Qian, Translated by Burton Watson, Chapter Li Yiji and Lu Jia, Page 225, A Renditions – Columbia University Press Book, Hong Kong New York, 1961.

This is an update in Zhao Tuo’s place of origin. He home town is in the Zhao state as shown in the above historical documentation. However Chiu Chao people remain a southern ethnicity and therefore could not have been the people whom Zhao Tuo led down from the northern state of Zhao to settle in Guangdong as exposited by a Vietnamese poster of this forum. One possible explanation could be though Zhao Tuo is from the Zhao state, he could have led a number of different groups of people from various states. One group could well be as I have theorized from the Sung state.

Edited by foldup_gryphon, 04 October 2005 - 05:59 AM.


#42 qrasy

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 06:47 AM

One little question.. What do you mean "Chiu Chao people remain a southern ethnicity"? Aren't all who live in Southern place 'Southern ethnicity'? (e.g. Hakka, Cantonese, Hainanese)

The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie—deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - JFK


#43 foldup_gryphon

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 10:43 AM

One little question.. What do you mean "Chiu Chao people remain a southern ethnicity"? Aren't all who live in Southern place 'Southern ethnicity'? (e.g. Hakka, Cantonese, Hainanese)

Chiu Chao is a member of the Min family in language, race, and customs. The Min family is related to other southern Chinese ethnicity. On the other hand there is no evidence for the Min family to have direct relationship with a northern family like the former Zhao state.

#44 qrasy

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 06:04 AM

Min family also like to claim that they are North migrant, but I don't know what they claim to be the bases.
(well, I've never heard they call themselves 'Min' or in their style "Ban", they seem to like 'Hokkien' much better)

If anyone claimed they to be Southerner or the same as the 'Min' of 'Min-yue' probably they will say same as Cantonese, it's only a name of people who lived there before they arrived.

Edited by qrasy, 05 October 2005 - 06:07 AM.

The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie—deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - JFK


#45 Toisanman

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Posted 23 April 2006 - 06:22 PM

I noticed that every dialect group has been covered in this thread. I just want to add my own. The Toisan (Taishan) people are a little known sub-branch of the Cantonese people. Cantonese people are often said to be divided into 2 branch dialect groups: the Sam Yup (3 district group) and the Sei Yup (4 district group). Guangzhou, Hong Kong, Macau and Zhongshan belongs to the Sam Yup, while Toisan, Xinhui, Kaiping belongs to the Sei Yup. I believe that Sam Yup Cantonese had undergone more influences from Mandarin than compared to Sei Yup and Toisan languages.

But, the more important factor is that Toisan people contributed to the early history of Chinese in America. Many of them challenged the early unjust and racist laws and actions of white Americans against Chinese and other Asians. Their forefathers worked the railways and goldmines of America. Their descendants today are in danger of fading into oblivion, integration, intermarriage and amalgamation with other cultures in America. Good thing or bad, I don't know?

I want Cantonese and esp. Toisan descended people to know that they come from a glorious tradition.

There is a 'secret' of our history that I need to share.






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