27 replies to this topic

[sg_han]

why only SOME?

[memeo]

I dunno, I haven't researched it, and not interested to research it also In my neighborhood, most of my friends i know, several of them still hold Budishm, but alot of my friends hold differents religion, like catholic, protestants, Hindu, Islamic, etc. So i would say SOME.

[Sephodwyrm]

I think the Chinese (as a people, not as PRC govt policy) are probably one of the most tolerant in terms of religious freedoms, and in terms of welcoming foreign religions (e.g., buddhism, zoroastrianism, islam, christianity).

Erm...well, lets take a look at history and you would know that this is a myth.
The Chinese are not most tolerant in terms of religious freedoms, but we certainly do view all religions with equal SUSPICIONS and DISTRUST. Here are the historical examples...

1. Anti Christian movements:
- Kang Xi's edict (ok, that was a bidirectional and somewhat collaborative effort with the Holy See...lol)
- Boxer Movement (this was sort of a people's movement that became supported by the government)
- modern PRC

2. Anti Islam movements:
- well, if you do consider anti Islam as in against the Muslim faiths, there were repressions against the Hui and the Uyghurs in the late Qing dynasty
- and in the modern PRC government as well

3. Anti Buddhist movements:
- the Northern Wei dynasty carried out a few anti Buddhist sweeps
- and the Northern Zhou dynasty carried out a few anti Buddhist sweeps after taking over the Buddhism crazed Northern Qi
- and Kang Xi refuted Buddhism in his edicts
- and the PRC continued to keep an eye on Buddhism

4. Anti Zoroastrianism
- there were bloody reprisals against Manicheanist and Zoroastrianist uprisings in the Tang and Song dynasty
- I don't know what the PRC is doing right now, but probably suppressing this ancient belief system

Seriously, no religion ever escaped from prosecution in China. And this is a good thing. It shows that we don't actually favor any religion.

[Yun]

Seriously, no religion ever escaped from prosecution in China. And this is a good thing. It shows that we don't actually favor any religion.

Ancestor worship and the worship of Confucius probably were never persecuted until after 1949. They seem to be making a comeback in the PRC today. I think the most that can be said is that ancient Chinese never favored any 'foreign religion', but then considering how influential Buddhism was compared to the others, that may not be totally true either.

The Qin persecution of Confucianism doesn't really count, because Confucius worship only got established in the Han, and ancestor worship was apparently never considered objectionable by the Qin regime (after all, the Qin emperor made offerings to his ancestors too).

BTW, I don't think there are any Zoroastrians left in China, unless there are small Parsee communities from India doing business there.

[Sephodwyrm]

They seem to be making a comeback in the PRC today.

But that's only because allowing this one may actually stem the others.
Even the PRC cracked down on Confucianism.
Hell, even the Christian Bo Yang cracked down on Confucianism.

[Yun]

Even the PRC cracked down on Confucianism.

Actually, only the Qin and the PRC cracked down on Confucianism. The furthest the May Fourth Movement people went was just condemning it as outdated and oppressive.

Hell, even the Christian Bo Yang cracked down on Confucianism.

As far as I know, Bo Yang is not a Christian, just sympathetic towards Christianity because he thinks it is one of the roots of democracy. He is too much an iconoclast to believe in a single religion.

[poseph]

Erm...well, lets take a look at history and you would know that this is a myth.
The Chinese are not most tolerant in terms of religious freedoms, but we certainly do view all religions with equal SUSPICIONS and DISTRUST.

I never said that the Chinese were perfect in that no foreign religions were ever persecuted. I said that relatively speaking they were more tolerant than the other people and other races, and that it was easier to be different among the Chinese community than in other major ethnic communities.

Again, my emphasis was on the PEOPLE, not governmental policy. Those examples you cited were more akin to official gov't policy, and as history has shown, governmental policy can change over-night with the death of the emperor that created the policy in the first place.

[tung2sai]

Since this is about Christianity practiced among the overseas Chinese, I'll give an example based on some of my observations and experiences.

(I'll try to be as objective as possible, and if it seems like what I'm posting is lacking something, it's because I'm trying to delete out my personal opinions and not so good experiences as much as possible).


As far back as I can remember, I've visited to at least 7 Chinese Churches, 4 in the US, 2 in Paris, and one in London. There were also several winter and summer retreat camps I've attended, one of them is quite well known in the US Midwest ( CWC, or Christian Witness Center). Through that, I've met many other Churches and Chinese Christian organizations.
Like others have posted before, people turn to religion for different reasons. Some are there because it did helped them become a better person, gives them a sense of meaning and purpose. Others are there for a social outlet, as a way for them to meet people or pass the time for some. Some are there (which is mostly among the younger generations or for those who have settled overseas for some time) because their families have done it, and it becomes more of a tradition. Others do it because their wife, parents, someone close to them believes in it, and they are there just to accompany them.

I think it depends on each individual, but for the most part, the Christian community, even among the Chinese, is quite diverse as well. I can not judge them for what they believe or practiced. Usually if I have any animosity towards the Christians, it's about the individual(s) and not their faith.
Honestly speaking, for some of the Christians I met, I don't think it would make much of a difference had they attended Church or worship at a Buddhist Temple. Some of them are pretty good people in general who do not know much about Christianity, while some are not so good. I'm not sure if other people feel the same way, but with the Chinese cultural mindset, it's fairly easy to detect whose fake or not. (generally speaking)

Some of the Chinese Churches are very organized, and some not very organized. Some of the believers range from being very strict in their households to quite lenient. Some of their kids behave good and do well in their studies, some not so good, and some just know how to act.
Some of the younger generations have that conservative belief of homosexuality is an abomination, prayer in school, just typical attitudes you will see among other Christians in general. Some can be quite liberal, and others are pretty much what I see most of the Christians I know are like; still party like an animal on the weekends but want to make it on time all neatly dressed and well mannered on Sunday.
Quite a few I've met served as a community center for Chinese culture, like this is where they can teach their kids the language and exposed the Chinese traditions (omitting certain "un-christian" elements) to the non-Chinese.

The Churches I've been to belong to a wide range of demoniations, like Baptist, Assemblies of God, Alliance, Methodist or Presbytarian. After thinking back, it didn't make much of a difference, at least not what they did or preach about.
(I'm aware there's certain differences between the demoninations like call to alter, speaking in tongues, etc. but it doesn't seem to be emphasize that much among the services and teachings at the Chinese Churches I went).
Some services lasted all day, some were just 2 hours. Time is a very strange issue for Chinese. It was pretty common at some of the Chinese Churches to see people who will arrive 10 minutes before the sermon ends even though it started like an hour ago. There's also some that are very serious and be quite punctual. There's also the dress issue. While there are people who will dress nice, with slacks, dress shirts, ties, dresses, typical "church" clothing, you will also see people wearing shorts, t-shirts, sandals, tank tops, flip flops, and everything in between.
There's also the style of how sermons are deliver, how the people react or behave differently, etc. These things largely depends on the leaders and the individual members themselves.

I don't know how to describe it well, but generally speaking, Christianity among the overseas Chinese (at least the ones in US, maybe Europe) is quite casual.
Some pastors and Church members are basically social workers. This is nice and some of them are appreciated for their efforts. Some are what I would call "real samaritans" like they don't mind whatever politics or theology, just help the person in need and uplift them, regardless of their immigrant status, wealth, external appearences, etc. If I have to compare, while some of the Chinese Christians I see want to emulate their western or American counterparts, it's not quite the same.


I get the feelings that most people, at least the CHF members, know a lot about the Chinese Christian communities (at least the ones overseas) and you all will know about them if you ever attended a Church or know any Chinese Christians.
While Christianity is still about saving souls, there's like a few Chinese Christians who may be pushy or a bit "fanatical" regarding that issue, most are just ordinary people, who do not act or look any different from those around them.

I'm trying really really really hard to hold back my countless criticisms and personal opinions of the Chinese churches and Christianity in general so I'll stop for now.

[polar_zen]

Many Overseas Chinese in the Philippines convert to Catholicism, which is the major Christian denomination among Filipinos.

Edited by polar_zen, 15 January 2008 - 03:26 AM.

[sunflower1]

i may want to add something about overseas china based on what i know.

the first thing come to my mind when i heard christian chinese is John Sung Shang Chieh 宋尚節 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Sung who i believe is a strong figure to bring flame of christianity to China and Nanhai (SE Asia). John Sung ever come to indonesia (solo etc) , Singapore and Vietnam.

some church in indonesia was set because of his influence or at least by his follower.

today in indonesia christianity grow very good, not only for chinese (where christian still a minority faith for chinese compare to buddhisme) but also for other races like Java,Batak,Dayak and most easter island in indonesia from Sulawesi to Irian jaya have many christian believers.

another important figure in indonesia now is Stephen Tong, founder of GRII (indonesian reformed church). stephen tong is born in China. every sunday he preached in Jakarta in morning then fly to Singapore to give 2 sermont (one in english and one in mandarin) and in monday i think he fly to taiwan to give sermont also.


for christian folk i really suggest you read the diaries of John Sung, a very interesting book of this "lunatic" preacher.

* Sung, Shang-chieh. (1995.) The diaries of John Sung: An autobiography (Unknown Binding). Luke H. Sheng, Stephen L. Sheng.ASIN: B0006QUQ2U
* Leslie T Lyall (1964). John Sung: Flame for God in the Far East. Moody Press.ASIN: B0007FDM0I

[polar_zen]

Here is something interesting I found which I believe is unique to overseas Chinese-Filipinos...



I got it from this site. It is from a Chinese cemetery in Manila, Philippines and it shows a Buddhist statue but with a small statue of Jesus in the background, to the lower left-hand side. You can also see a crucifix behind the Buddha statue. Quite funny!

I know religious statues (like this one of Jesus in the back of the Buddha statue) are generally frowned upon by Protestants, but are considered a part of the decorations of a Catholic Church, and most Chinese in the Philippines are Catholics, unlike other Chinese Christians like in Singapore who tend to be Protestant. This is most likely due to the fact that Filipinos are fiercely Catholic due to 300 plus years of Spanish rule. I think other Chinese are generally Protestant because most of the missionaries who went to China were American English, or German who were mostly Protestant.

Edited by polar_zen, 03 February 2008 - 10:26 PM.

[sg_han]

Chinese in Philippines tend to practise both Buddhism and Christianity/Catholicism concurrently. Weird but true.

[technogypsy]

Hmmm. Interesting thread. 2/3 of the Chinese in our department are Christian. Mostly Protestants, 1 catholic. No Orthodox althro my church has 2 Chinese families and 2 other mixed marriage. A handful of adopted kids too. They seem to be just like everyone else. I don't know of any Chinese who are Coptics, Nestorian, etc.

As to the hateful, etc. that came up again, Christianity is very diverse and the range of doctrine such that the fringes will not recognize each other. Your noisy ones then to be a very small part of the whole but they get the press.