40 replies to this topic

[Sappakji]

how about the min dialect group? what linguistic groups were a major influence to it... i know old chinese is one of them, what are the others..

I remember reading somewhere that the Min and Vietnamese language is related.

[xng]

how about the min dialect group? what linguistic groups were a major influence to it... i know old chinese is one of them, what are the others..

All chinese languages evolved from old chinese, including cantonese. Therefore, Min did not have 'influence' from old chinese but rather evolved from them.The min language is influenced from the min yue tribe which is Tai speaking people.Most southern china area were once inhabited by Tai people.The natives of Guangdong were mainly Zhuang, a tai speaking people.

I remember reading somewhere that the Min and Vietnamese language is related.

No, they are only related in the borrowed chinese words into vietnamese language. So are other chinese languages and not just min.

Edited by xng, 04 November 2007 - 10:17 PM.

[Thaibebop]

" The most obvious charateristic that serves to indentify the Tai as a separate people is their language. The relationship between the Tai family of languages and the neighboring languages of East and Southeast Asia has not been definitly established, and it is not yet possible to speak of Tai languages as belonging with any certainty to any larger linguistic grouping like "Romance languages" or "Indo-European languages." The relationships amoung the Tai languages themselves, however, are relatively clear, even to the point that there is some degree of mutual intelligibility amoung speakers of Lao, Siamese, and Shan, for example. No such striking relationships exist, however, amough Tai languages and such neighboring tongues as Burmese, Cambodian, Vietnamese, or Chinese."

This is taken from Thailand: A Short History by David K. Wyatt.

All chinese languages evolved from old chinese, including cantonese. Therefore, Min did not have 'influence' from old chinese but rather evolved from them.The min language is influenced from the min yue tribe which is Tai speaking people.Most southern china area were once inhabited by Tai people.The natives of Guangdong were mainly Zhuang, a tai speaking people.
No, they are only related in the borrowed chinese words into vietnamese language. So are other chinese languages and not just min.

I repeat my earlier post. There is no yet proven link from any Asian langauges to Tai langauges that creates a true lineage which would explain the evolution of Tai langauges. I have heard many people say that there is a connection between Tai and dialects of China, but all that I have read on the subject, or that touches the subject never has suggested such. The Tai speaking poeple I know have never found any connection between what they speak and any Chinese dialect. I am sure due to the fact that many Chinese speaking peoples have moved into these areas that modern Tai langauges have picked up word and understanding of the dialects the moved in, but the base, the foundation of Tai langauges has not been proved to have been connected to any other Asian langauge. I would like this blank space in our understanding filled for it would deepen my understanding of Thai, but I am still looking for proof otherwise.

[One time poster]

Can anyone provide recordings of Zhuang speech? I am interested in hearing Zhuang speech because I read an article a while back of Princess Sirindhorn of Thailand visited a Zhuang village in southern China. If I remember it was a village in Guangxi. It was reported that the Princess did not need to communicate through her translator because the languages were close enough for them to understand one another's speech. For this reason I am interested in hearing Zhuang speech. I had always assumed Zhuang speech would not be intelligible to the average Thai speaker.

[MC420]

I do speak Cantonese, Thai, and Vietnamese and I believe Viet language is closer to Thai than comparing to Cantonese. There are the Thai ethnics living in Vietnam as well (different tribes which called by different name according to the preferred color of their custom); The language of Thai ethnic living in Vietnam is compatible to the Thai accent from the Northeast of Thailand (at least to my hearing). I could speak Thai with very little noticeable accent (while I was learning Thai very much later or shorter time than learning Cantonese). I could communicate in Cantonese with the Chinese Vietnamese better than with those from Hong Kong (perhaps due to different accent via the diffusion process of the time?)

Anyhow, I could pick up Thai much more natural and easier than Cantonese ... and Mandarin is still much more challenging for me to master yet!

[One time poster]

Hi MC420,

Did you learn the Standard Thai of the Central Thailand region, or some other dialect? The northeastern Thai and the northern Thai dialects are not very different from dialects spoken in Laos. Have you heard any of the Zhuang languages? I am really curious about how close it is to its southeast Asian cousins. I also understand that the "Zhuang" was a manufactured ethnic group that was formed through the constant urging of the PRC, so I assume there might be large differences in dialects within the Zhuang groups.

In addition, I remember reading the Thai culture was more influenced by India, or at least half Indian and half Chinese.

You forgot the 1/3 British influence. Hehehe

Oops sorry I forgot to address the original topic earlier. To get a sense of things lets consider how the language we are typing in, English, basically worships the Latin language. Well, that's how Thai treats Sanskrit (an old Indian language). The same way English treats Latin. Take, for example, references to the Moon in English. When English describe the Moon, especially in technical terms they often use some form of the word "Luna", which means Moon in Latin. In Thai the average term for the Moon is Duan. A real simple single syllable word. However, if you're trying to sound academic then the term "Juntra" is used. It is derived from the Sanskrit word for Moon, which was "Chandra". By the way, both Luna and Chandra were also dieties relating to the Moon.

Academic Thai is heavily loaded with words derived from Sanskrit. It is a heritage from the time when their people conquered the Mons, and then later defeated and enslaved the Khmers. At the time the Khmers were considered highly cultured.

Does that help determine which language is more heavily Chinese influenced?
Nowadays, tho I am willing to bet that English influence trumps both Chinese and Indian hahaha.

Edited by One time poster, 06 November 2007 - 02:21 AM.

[MC420]

Hi MC420,

Did you learn the Standard Thai of the Central Thailand region, or some other dialect? The northeastern Thai and the northern Thai dialects are not very different from dialects spoken in Laos. Have you heard any of the Zhuang languages? I am really curious about how close it is to its southeast Asian cousins. I also understand that the "Zhuang" was a manufactured ethnic group that was formed through the constant urging of the PRC, so I assume there might be large differences in dialects within the Zhuang groups.

I've learned the Standard Thai of the Central Region (whereas they don't confuse with the pronouciation of the "R" from the "L"); It's quite interesting that there are a few tai/kadai ethnic groups living in Vietnam as well The Zhuang people do also live in Vietnam (related to the Tay & Nung ethnic). Of course, the Zhuang is also a stock of the Tai/Kadai group therefore their languages would be quite similar; due to the geographical and social separation over the centuries, their language would be diversed over time ... however the core/root of their language would not change all that much. The Zhuang originally was considered as part of the Bai-Yue group therefore certain cultural, social, and linguistic connection with the modern Viet (descendant of the Lou-Yue group) would not be that distant though!

[One time poster]

I was wondering of the Zhuang from Guangxi in particular because of the story of Princess Sirindhorn's visit to Guangxi. I figured just because some politicians decide to group people together does not give us a clear picture of the true state of affairs. Especially given the circumstances under which the "Zhuang" ethnicity was created after the PRC took control of China. Politics can sometimes cloud the issue. Take for example, the northeastern and northern Thai dialects. For the most parts they are almost exactly identical to the language spoken by the Lao people just across the Mekong river. However, officially they are declared two separate languages. The same applies to linguists. Just because English is a Germanic language does not mean English speakers will be able to understand German.

So I'm quite interested in knowing just how much the Zhuang languages have in common with their southeast Asian linguistic cousins. The degree of difference can be great or large, and it can only be decided upon by listening. More precisely I am wondering just how much I, myself, can comprehend the Zhuang languages. Hehe

Edited by One time poster, 06 November 2007 - 02:10 PM.

[kiyomizu]

Hey! I'm Thai.

Ahh~ I want you to know something about Thai language (My language, instead). There are many word

That was from another country, like some counting. The cantonese countings are

(1-10) tua - yi - sa - see - ngow - luck - boei - gao - jub

Thai countings are

(1-10) nueng - song - saam - see - haa - hog - jed - baed - gao - sib

As you see four and nine are the same and three and eight are so likely.

Ask me any question. And I'll answer as I can !

Kiyomizu

[Thaibebop]

Hey! I'm Thai.

Ahh~ I want you to know something about Thai language (My language, instead). There are many word

That was from another country, like some counting. The cantonese countings are

(1-10) tua - yi - sa - see - ngow - luck - boei - gao - jub

Thai countings are

(1-10) nueng - song - saam - see - haa - hog - jed - baed - gao - sib

As you see four and nine are the same and three and eight are so likely.

Ask me any question. And I'll answer as I can !

Kiyomizu

Sawat dee Krap! Are you in Thailand now? I bet the whether is nice!

[kiyomizu]

My Cantonese are wrong? Oh sorry. I remembered it from jin yong's novel(Translated)

[Sinoid]

This is Zhuang language.

http://www.zshare.ne...5446133175d3e1/

It is completely un-intelligible to Cantonese. It may sound similar to someone who cannot understand Cantonese, Zhuang, Thai, Lao or Vietnamese.

[One time poster]

There are a few sounds in that file that a Thai or Lao speaker would not ever use. If that is standard Zhuang (if Zhuang has a standard) then it is unintelligible to a standard Thai or Lao speaker. In Thai and Lao the word Pi-Nong can be interpreted as "relatives" when used together in that form. Pi by itself can be interpreted as an older sibling, but it is also used in as a respectful term that is applied to anyone who is old enough to be an older brother or sister. Nong is a younger sibling, but in the same way it can be applied to anyone young enough to be a younger brother or sister as a term of respect. So, what is the sound file supposed to be?

I forgot to mention that a standard Lao speaker would not use Pi in that manner. They would instead use the word "Ai" which would serve the same purpose.

Edited by One time poster, 04 April 2008 - 04:53 PM.

[Sinoid]

There are a few sounds in that file that a Thai or Lao speaker would not ever use. If that is standard Zhuang (if Zhuang has a standard) then it is unintelligible to a standard Thai or Lao speaker.

I forgot to mention that a standard Lao speaker would not use Pi in that manner. They would instead use the word "Ai" which would serve the same purpose.

Exactly, Cantonese, Thai, Vietnamese, Zhuang are completely un-intelligible to one another. They are different langauges. Word ordering will never be the same either. The only thing in common is mono-syllabic and tonal nature. The speakers of any of these lanaguages can make the sounds of one another easily.

In my opinion, the Sino-Tibetan-Burmic, Tai-Kadai classification mainly produced by western linguist is completely flawed when looking at these tonal / monosyllabic language.

[One time poster]

Ohh that's what you mean. I think you missunderstood what they meant when they classify languages into family groups. It's basically classified based upon its lineage. Meaning that languages which have a common origin. Even Western languages in the same family group are unintelligible. I see you writing in English, but can you understand German? It is also in the same family group as English. Being in the same family group does not mean languages are intelligible. It just means those languages have a common ancestor.