39 replies to this topic

[MengTzu]

There is a topic in the non-English board about this, and it got me intereted in the topic again, so I decided to start a thread about it here. Below is what I wrote on that board. Everybody post what he or she thinks about the novel!

"I'd take me aeons to write a post in Chinese (I got that touch pad thing, very annoying.) plus I'm not good at writing stuff in Chinese, so please excuse an English reply.

The basic storylines are two: the love story of Baoyu and Daiyu, and the gradual collapse of the Jia family. It's a reflection of its time, of how 1) society didn't allow free expression of romantic love, and 2) the corruptions in a typical aristocratic family. The story was set in Ming I think, but written in Qing, so I'm not sure whether it reflect more of Ming (if the story is set in that time, that is) or Qing.

I dunno if I like or hate Hong Lou Meng. I was very eager to read it, it being a classic and has so many deep meanings. Some parts are very touching: Baoyu is a very lovable character. Shangyun is another one I love. Daiyu strike me as too melancholic to the point of excess. Baochai was too boring. And then there are a gazillion of characters I can't keep track. What drove me nuts about this novel are 1) it's written in some dialect I don't understand. I mean, if you can read Chinese, you can read every dialect, but the people in this novel just talk funny. I didn't have that trouble with Romance of Three Kingdoms and Outlaws of the Marsh. 2) it's melancholic to the point of sickness. It's really about a bunch of women and children overblowing every little small trivial thing into a big drama and everybody laughs and cries all the freaking time. Reminds me of Korean drama. Dunno if that helped.

Peace,

Michael

11-26-2004"

[caocao74]

The Dream of Red Chamber was one of the first books I had to read at university, and I tend to agree with your sentiments, as I find it too much like a novel by one of the BRonte sisters (too much detail about particularly un-insightful aspects of daily life and feelings, irritatingly sentimental characters, etc).
I'm reading it again on-line at the china-on-site website but more out of a need to reestablish in the memory things I haven't read for some years, rather than any liking of the work. Give me the Romance or Golden Lotus anytime.

[MengTzu]

The Dream of Red Chamber was one of the first books I had to read at university, and I tend to agree with your sentiments, as I find it too much like a novel by one of the BRonte sisters (too much detail about particularly un-insightful aspects of daily life and feelings, irritatingly sentimental characters, etc).
I'm reading it again on-line at the china-on-site website but more out of a need to reestablish in the memory things I haven't read for some years, rather than any liking of the work.  Give me the Romance or Golden Lotus anytime.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't mention this but I haven't finished the novel. I just wanna fast forward to the ending. I know the ending, but I dunno the details. Can you just tell me what happens in the end please =) (Starting with the wedding of Baoyu and Baochai. Wasn't it somewhere along the line of Wang Hsi Feng plotted and had Baochai replaced Daiyu while Baoyu thot he was gonna marry Daiyu, and when he removed the wedding veil, voila, it was Baochai, and then Baoyu coughed blood and fainted. I actually think some parts were good in a dramatic way.)

[caocao74]

....and from then on Bao Yu's attitude becomes ever more erratic, until he departs for the autumn examinations (rather hysterically) never to be heard of again. I myself am re-reading it, but thus far my original opinion of it has not been altered. At my current speed, you could well get to its conclusion before me.

[Liang Jieming]

I dunno if I like or hate Hong Lou Meng. I was very eager to read it, it being a classic and has so many deep meanings. Some parts are very touching: Baoyu is a very lovable character. Shangyun is another one I love. Daiyu strike me as too melancholic to the point of excess. Baochai was too boring. And then there are a gazillion of characters I can't keep track. What drove me nuts about this novel are 1) it's written in some dialect I don't understand. I mean, if you can read Chinese, you can read every dialect, but the people in this novel just talk funny. I didn't have that trouble with Romance of Three Kingdoms and Outlaws of the Marsh. 2) it's melancholic to the point of sickness. It's really about a bunch of women and children overblowing every little small trivial thing into a big drama and everybody laughs and cries all the freaking time. Reminds me of Korean drama. Dunno if that helped.

Peace,

Michael

11-26-2004"

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Ya same here. I read it because it was a classic and so I felt I should but it really got tiresome to read and by the middle I was going like "man, this is going round and round it circles talking about nothing all the time". Anyways. I've finished it. Don't think I'll ever pick it up again. I'm now reading Water Margin (Outlaws of the Marsh). Got a few questions I need to ask on the characters and will post in another thread later.

Cheers,
Jieming

[MengTzu]

Ya same here.  I read it because it was a classic and so I felt I should but it really got tiresome to read and by the middle I was going like "man, this is going round and round it circles talking about nothing all the time".  Anyways.  I've finished it.  Don't think I'll ever pick it up again.  I'm now reading Water Margin (Outlaws of the Marsh).  Got a few questions I need to ask on the characters and will post in another thread later.

Cheers,
Jieming

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Please, feel free to ask. I'm a huge fan of Outlaws.

[浪淘音]

i read the book

watching the drama currently (whicy btw has an excellent Chinese Orchestral score for soundtrack)

the book is quite difficult to understand.

[MengTzu]

i read the book

watching the drama currently (whicy btw has an excellent Chinese Orchestral score for soundtrack)

the book is quite difficult to understand.

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Are you talking about the Hong Lou Meng drama? Isn't that very old or did they make a new one?

[浪淘音]

Are you talking about the Hong Lou Meng drama?  Isn't that very old or did they make a new one?

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the old one obviously (which has an incredible Chinese Orchestral Score soundtrack). The drama exaggerated Baoyu's effeminateness

i don't watch dramas normally so i wouldn't know if they made a new one.

i read the book in Chinese and its quite difficult to get through.

[MengTzu]

the old one obviously (which has an incredible Chinese Orchestral Score soundtrack). The drama exaggerated Baoyu's effeminateness

i don't watch dramas normally so i wouldn't know if they made a new one.

i read the book in Chinese and its quite difficult to get through.

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Can you really exaggerate Baoyu's effeminateness though? =)

[Yun]

Perhaps the best novel to compare Honglou Meng with would not be any other Chinese novel, but rather the equally rambling and complex Tale of Genji (Genji Monogatari) by Lady Murasaki Shikibu of Heian Japan - usually considered the first novel ever written in history. Murasaki had a huge number of subplots and minor characters, and tons of melancholy sentimentality. Her work was praised for portraying the inner emotional world of women with great accuracy and sensitivity. I haven't read Honglou Meng, but my Chinese teacher in Junior College once told me that one big reason Honglou Meng is so admired is because the author Cao Xueqin, despite being a man, was able to understand a woman's mind so well in depicting his many female characters. Honglou Meng is really a novel about a highly sensitive (perhaps effeminate) boy living in a woman's world - that's why guys are far more likely to appreciate RTK, or The Water Margin, or (for obvious reasons) The Golden Lotus.

[MengTzu]

Perhaps the best novel to compare Honglou Meng with would not be any other Chinese novel, but rather the equally rambling and complex Tale of Genji (Genji Monogatari) by Lady Murasaki Shikibu of Heian Japan - usually considered the first novel ever written in history. Murasaki had a huge number of subplots and minor characters, and tons of melancholy sentimentality. Her work was praised for portraying the inner emotional world of women with great accuracy and sensitivity. I haven't read Honglou Meng, but my Chinese teacher in Junior College once told me that one big reason Honglou Meng is so admired is because the author Cao Xueqin, despite being a man, was able to understand a woman's mind so well in depicting his many female characters. Honglou Meng is really a novel about a highly sensitive (perhaps effeminate) boy living in a woman's world - that's why guys are far more likely to appreciate RTK, or The Water Margin, or (for obvious reasons) The Golden Lotus.

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"Perhaps effeminate" is an understatement =) Baoyu is after all bisexual (not saying that all bisexual men are effeminate.) And the women around him are just as sensitive (even some of the men.) It's amazing how frequently people laugh and cry in that book.

[Liang Jieming]

Please, feel free to ask.  I'm a huge fan of Outlaws.

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hehe, thanks. I will.

Honglou Meng is really a novel about a highly sensitive (perhaps effeminate) boy living in a woman's world - that's why guys are far more likely to appreciate RTK, or The Water Margin, or (for obvious reasons) The Golden Lotus.

The Golden Lotus? What book is that?

[MengTzu]

hehe, thanks.  I will.
The Golden Lotus?  What book is that?

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Jin Ping Mei -- Golden Vase Plum.

[Liang Jieming]

Jin Ping Mei -- Golden Vase Plum.

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Ah, ok thanks. That's another book I need to read. :-)

Jieming